TENSHOCK,NEU, LEHNER wie kommen sie zu vergleichen?

[cohesive]

Greeting from the USA. I wanted to get your opinions on these 3 motors. I know alot more about the lehner and Neu motors than the tenshock 2760 series. How do you think these motors compare. If you rated them 1,2,3, what would be you pick and why?

I want to power a new saw boat and am trying to decide on the best performer.

Thanks,
Cohesive

Gruß aus den USA. Ich wollte Ihre Meinung zu diesen 3-Motoren zu bekommen. Ich kenne eine Menge mehr über die Lehner und Neu-Motoren als die Serie Tenshock 2760. Wie denken Sie, diese Motoren zu vergleichen. Wenn man sie bewertet 1,2,3, was wäre Sie wählen, und warum?



Ich möchte eine neue Säge Boot antreiben und ich versuche, auf den besten Darsteller entscheiden.



Danke,

kohäsiv

[Jo-nny]

Hello Cohesive,

apropos of nothing: whats your real name?

to your question: Lehner and NEU Motors are much more efficient because of their higher power density in contrast to the Tenshock.
The LMT´s have got a lot more precision- and mechanical strength of rotation Speed than the TS.

For the SAW-using i advise NEU or LMT.

by the way, the LMT´s have a very fine rotation Speed gradiation. Thats hugely usefull for plan an SAW-Boat.

I hope i was able to help.

Greetings from germany
Johannes

PS: sorry for my bad English grammar

[MiSt]

... Lehner and NEU Motors are much more efficient because of their higher power density in contrast to the Tenshock.
The LMT´s have got a lot more precision- and mechanical strength of rotation Speed than the TS ...

Any real technical proof for this or just rumours?

Tenshock is more or less a Neu clone (multi-pole inrunner with slotted windings in the stator). Lehner has a completely different construction principle (two-pole inrunner with self-supporting winding).

[Jo-nny]

Hello Michael,

I think, the more efficiency results out of the closer winding.

The precision-rotation-speed results out of the high efficiency.

Am i wrong?

Lehner has a completely different construction principle (two-pole inrunner with self-supporting winding).

Isn´t that the same like "more efficiency"?

[MiSt]

Sorry, that is complete nonsense.

Losses inside an electrical DC motor with permanent magnets have several reasons, from which the main ones are:
- mechanical (quality of bearings, air displacement for example by an air cooling)
- ohmical (resistance of the windings)
- inductive (eddy current losses)
- magnetical (air gap width)

Slotted windings (Neu, Tenshock, Leopard, TP, ...)
+ high reproducability during manufacturing even for drunken or stoned workers
+ very small air gaps feasible at no risk of damage to the windings
- comparably high eddy current losses

Self-supporting windings (Lehner, Kontronik, cheap chinese motors)
- usually bigger air gaps needed for riskless operation
- bad reproducability during manufacturing ("spaghetti windings")

Efficiency differences between the mentioned OEMs are in the single percent range, in many cases only in the fraction of percent range, what regards the efficiency peak's height. Much more important is whether the efficiency is broad-banded, and at which operating current the peak is located.

Moreover, it has to be checked carefully whether the data is calculated/extrapolated or measured (it is common practice for DC motors to officialize calculated data due to the simple physics, so very rarely the data is truly measured. Mabuchi or Johnson data is all calculated, as is Lehner's).

A controller's inner resistance might be included in the data and documented as such (as will be in real life - rarely the case), or the data is calculated without any (yielding "better" results).

So there is no way except for comparing the motors individually for the specific purpose, especially as it is not for sure whether the a 2, 4 or 6pole approach gives best results for a given "problem".

Misalignments in boat setup have much (!!!) more impact than the efficiency differences of the motors.

A specific risks of some BLs is broken rotors (Lehner - and other manufacturers - has/have had too thin shafts for the long motor versions ==> resonant effects on the shaft blew up the rotors).

The magnets have to be secured against blow-up by centrifugal forces
- some carbon or kevlar rovings around (Leopard and others, AFAIK also Neu)
- using dovetail guides (tenshock, no final protection against blow-up)
- using stainless steel shells (Lehner, additional eddy current losses!)

[Jo-nny]

Hello,

Ok, i get it.

My post was not an ascertainment of the facts, just a question if my mind is right.

As i said above, sorry for my bad grammar...

[cohesive]

Hello Cohesive,

apropos of nothing: whats your real name?

to your question: Lehner and NEU Motors are much more efficient because of their higher power density in contrast to the Tenshock.
The LMT´s have got a lot more precision- and mechanical strength of rotation Speed than the TS.

For the SAW-using i advise NEU or LMT.

by the way, the LMT´s have a very fine rotation Speed gradiation. Thats hugely usefull for plan an SAW-Boat.

I hope i was able to help.

Greetings from germany
Johannes

PS: sorry for my bad English grammar

My name is Hubert .One reason I came here is for a different perspective. I dont want to look at the world only through American eyes. I sincerely hope I am welcomed here. I see it as a great oppertunity to broaden my thinking and learning.

CH Lucas is a fellow modeler whom I ask questions of from time to time. Camille told me I could find him here. I also sold benny a PTss45 boat.

Mein Name ist Hubert.Ein Grund, warum ich hierher gekommen ist, um einen anderen Blickwinkel. Ich will die Welt nur aus amerikanischer Sicht betrachten. Ich hoffe aufrichtig, dass ich hier willkommen bin. Ich sehe es als eine große Chance, kann mein Denken und lernen.


CH-Lucas ist ein Kollegen Modellierer, denen ich von Zeit zu Zeit Fragen zu stellen. Camille sagte mir, dass ich ihn hier finden könnte. Ich habe auch Benny ein PTss45 Boot verkauft.


Über die Tenshock mit 6-polig. Gibt es eine Chance, die sie entwickelt mehr Drehmoment? Welche Controller zeigen Erfolg damit @ 50 k +?


Zwischen der Lehner und Neu die beste Rohstoffe für den Bau verwendet?


In der Lehner Motoren ist die Baureihe Neu 1527 ungefähr gleich?

About the tenshock having 6 poles. Is there a chance it develops more torque? What controller show success with it @ 50k+?
Between the Lehner and Neu which uses the best raw materials for construction?
In the Lehner line of motors which is approximately equal to the 1527 Neu series?

[cohesive]

I understand and agree with your post about the importance of setup. The escs I will be using are castle hydra ice hv's v2.

Are there any other record setting performers that I should consider? Of the SAW records held in Germany which motor prevails???

Ich verstehe und Stimme mit Ihrem Beitrag über die Bedeutung des Setups. Die WSA ich verwenden werden sind Schloss Hydra Ice Hv v2.


Gibt es andere Rekord Einstellung-Künstler, die ich beachten sollte? Die SAW-Datensätze, die in Deutschland gehalten, welcher Motor sich durchsetzt???

Danke,
Hubert

[MiSt]

I understand and agree with your post about the importance of setup. The escs I will be using are castle hydra ice hv's v2.

Are there any other record setting performers that I should consider? Of the SAW records held in Germany which motor prevails???

Considered you really understood and agreed, why then the question ?

When someone with avarage level of experience in setting up boats uses Motor X, he will be faster than a newbie using the same Motor X. Also there will be some guys who are actually faster with Motor X. And they will be still faster, even if you are going to use a "prevailing" Motor Y unless you learn to set up your boat better than the best.



What regards torque vs. pole number:

• Any motor having the same specific rpms per Volt [rpm/V] has the same torque per Amp [Nm/A], regardless of the number of poles, regardless of its size or weight. This is an outcome of fundamental physics: Energy is always just converted from one style to another, but the amount is maintained (here electrical to mechanical + thermal)
• The absolute amount of torque ([Nm], so not divided by Amps) is therefore determined by nothing but the flow of current, which is finally limited by the various resistors involved (motor, accu, controller, cables, connectors)
• constructions with more or less poles have their specific benefits anyhow, to understand it is helpful to look on the extremes:
• a 2pole motor puts the smallest stress on the controller, is therefore best choice for extreme rpms, because the controller is working with maximum timing precision possible. But to achieve low specific rpms/V to drive air propellers it has to use plenty of windings and will get a big internal resistance, so this application is unusual or in fact nonsense
• a 10-14pole motor (invented by Ch. Lucas, btw.), as it is widely used to drive air propellers on planes, has a much lower internal resistance than a 2pole of same weight at low rpms/V. So it is capable of higher currents (==> more torque) at high efficiency. On the other hand it will put extreme stress on a controller at high rpms as needed in boats
• the 4-6(8) pole motors available from Neu or Tenshock proved to be a very good choice in raceboats, in fact mostly the better one over 2pole, at least for oval racing. Their advantage in this application is the lower internal resistance at given rpm/V and weight, which gives you more "punch" (torque) when accelerating (on cost of more current!!)
• for SAW you have to compare carefully, because the usually higher rpm-level may bring back the advantage to 2pole motors. Still the tiny differences on this (Neu, Lehner, Tenshock) level of quality will be camouflaged by even the smallest mistake in setup or driving.

BTW: My nick is composed of my extended initials, what is common practice to generate user names in IT systems. It has a strange meaning in German as well as in English, but I have to deal with it all day long in my job. So as kind of self-irony I use it in forums as well, but I like to get it written correctly "MiSt" (in fact I think all users like their nicks to be written correctly ...), or just call me Michael as written in my signature.

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi Budy,
as you see you are in best hands.MiSt ,Michaels answers give you all you need to know.btw. i am not the inventor of the 10 and 14 pole motor system the true inventor was Zielinski and Schoepp from Poland, http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/...0_Wroclaw.html ,this is the translated paper i gave to Peter Rother if you want to compere some motors with the same stator dia ,lengh and number of slots you can simple multiplicate kv X number of turns per phase . The motor with the lowest result will be the winner as it has the best designed magnetic circuit.i have done it a time ago with some outrunner motors ,here an example plate.

Typ kv wdg ~1/Fluss Fluss relativ
Torcster N5065/6: 394 x 12 = 4728 89%
Hacker A50-16L: 270 x 16 = 4320 97%
Conrad BO 4570-10: 430 x 10 = 4300 98%
Hacker A50-12L: 350 x 12 = 4200 100% -arbitrarily set to 100%
Hacker A50-14L: 300 x 14 = 4200 100%
Hyperion Z4035-12: 345 x 12 = 4140 101%
Conrad BO 4570-10/2: 400 x 10 = 4000 105%
Hyperion ZS4035-10: 354 x 10 = 3540 119%

You see the Hyperion (Scorpion) motor is the winner with the best magnetic circuit .
but there is as well a winner the cheap Conrad motor best price to quality.

For SAW have always in mind that every motor can handle much moore load if the cooling is well designed. Ad a watercoolingjacket or a powerfull airblower or let some compressed gas expand inside the coils .
Of late i test a outrunner ,same motor size and weight, one for direct drive up to 80000 rpm and one with a epicyclic gear rev up 1:4 and one rev direct with 30000 rpm for high pitch prop. Here the best is the gear up system with the fastes accleration time .
The 2 pole inrunner with slotless ,airgap winding will reach the highest efficancy as the magnetic flux is less and the copperfill is the highest and the magnetic related loss in the coils can be low with multistrand wire.
Today the gap between Lehner and Neu is very close. Other parts in the driveline are moore important and it's easy to make mistakes,like running deep and angle of attace of the propeller and the blade shape .

[sofus97]

hey Hubert


I am Brian from Denmark


I'm not too familiar with all the theoretical, but more Practical experience.
But I can only give the gentleman right, Neu motors are best for torque at low rpm and Lehneren at high.
Has sailed both types are both super motors, Tenshock can not keep up when it comes to large motors.
I would think that a Lehner 2260 is power-wise as a Neu 1527

In Germany, all SAW sailors run with Lehner and it is also trend in the United States I think.


Have a Nice day


Brian

[Robert]

Hello guys,

from also a more practical point of view, i love to have the option to switch between star and triangle circuit. You see it in the image. Because of that i can make an easy going test run setup with the same engine and lower RPM, get the setup and stability of the boat working in the right manner, and than...switch into the high RPM mode. I think that can save a lot of money at the beginning and all is in one engine available.

Cheers
Robert

[MiSt]

Hello guys,

from also a more practical point of view, i love to have the option to switch between star and triangle circuit. You see it in the image. Because of that i can make an easy going test run setup with the same engine and lower RPM, get the setup and stability of the boat working in the right manner, and than...switch into the high RPM mode. I think that can save a lot of money at the beginning and all is in one engine available.

Cheers
Robert

Even more practically it is no practical problem to convert any BL from star to triangle or vice versa (the latter is more more common with the average BL sold ...). You just need some practice to do so ... the second or third time it becomes increasingly easy.

On the other hand the leap in rpms by a factor of 1,73 (well, in awkward theory it is SQR(3) ...) is usually not really possible to handle with the <same> setup (theoretically and practically ...).

[cohesive]

What bldc controllers are most successful with the out runners? I also have the hardware here to build a rohbust bldc controller based around a dsPIC30F2010 a 16 bit MICROCHIP dsp mcu. Im considering other commutation options instead of the typical zero cross found in hobby controllers . Cant I turn a larger or higher piched prop with more torque from the outrunner and still have a winner?My target would be 35-45k rpm. I have considered rewinds with better materials .I have two 58X49 8 turn 8 magnet 12 stator tooth 1400 kv outrunners.I did not contemplate any particular wind sequence. I have two x455 custom ground to 52 mm propellors .@ 8s I would want to be able to pull 180 amperes continuosly out of the motors.

your time and patience is greatly appreciated.




Hubert

[cohesive]

microdan3.JPG microdan2.JPG Daniel Sny of go brushless.com(micro dan) the maker of the velocity edf outrunner pictured here, is only 70 km from me. He could supply better raw materials and rewind wind the motors for me.
http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/inde...agnet+wire+std

Here is the dsPIC30F2010 and PIC16F877 development boards and some of the components selected for the BL controllers
2011-10-12_02-34-17_181.jpg2011-10-02_17-04-41_375.jpg112511133027.jpg



Funny about the BL controllers and difficult to drive high pole outrunners. The velocity is 4200kv
winding is 8 turns per tooth 22AWG ABC terminated delta
Stator Poles: 12
Magnet Poles: 8

I am running it in a 16th scale hydroplane (61cm) on 3 s lipo 46,620 rpm(no load) with a cheap 25 dollar chinese esc . Timing set to auto with no issue.......

[cohesive]

Robot that I will use for production of the pcb's

2011-10-02_16-19-15_477.jpg

Many methodical steps between an "idea" and something real...

Christian,
Also I subscribe to the motor construction and diy electronics threads on rc groups.com and would like to try some of these different winds and commutation algorithms on these inrunners and some custom outrunners.


Hubert

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi Hugh,

for SAW you can use the option of weaken the magnetic force in the motor by rising the timing over 30 degree. The problem is that the sensorless controller can not go over 30 degree without risk of losing the comutation .Here the sensor controller will be the better system as you can run a motor with lower kv and higher torque that will easy turn a high pitched and bigger dia propeller. Only on the straight when the motor reach a set rpm the controller can swich in the weaken mode and rise the motor rpm . It's better to go this way to rise the timing than to go with a high rev motor and let it run in partload condition with the esc. The running time under part load will benmuch longer than the runningtime under full load condition .
By the way ,i am thinking about a additional high current flywheel with counter rotating flywheels. They give the option to run with a lower max power batterie as the acclerating power will served by the flywheel . But the main idea is to use the gyro system to control roll or turn movment of the boat by switching between the rotating mass .Belong to the flywheel you can force the boat in usfull direction by flywheel breaking and acclerating .Some student at the ETH Zürich have create a cube with flywheelsystem that can move and hold any position you want by acclerating and breaking the flywheels. They don't use the gyroforce like helicopters do.

regards Christian

[cohesive]

Christian, here are the 8 turn delta 1400 kv outrunners I want to rewind. After removing the large c clip I still cannot remove the stator. Is it glued on? Can I remove it?

Christian hier sind die 8 turn Delta 1400 kv Outrunners möchte ich zurückspulen. Ich will wenigstens 1800kv. Nach dem Entfernen des großen C-Clips kann nicht den Stator noch entfernt werden. Ist es auf geklebt? Kann ich es entfernen

Hubert

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi,
Yes you have to remove it.Use deep coold and a hammer and a plasitik part that match the inside dia of the stator to bump it out. 12slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phas design better for high powerdensity is a 12 slot 10 pole design and the right stator plates cut out . Best here are the Scorpion HK serie motors. You know this video of the modelhelicopters lifting the lady , http://youtu.be/77uK19KxMuI . Each motor can do 10 KW and each heli can easy lift 30 kg .

[Ralf Moser]

Even more practically it is no practical problem to convert any BL from star to triangle or vice versa (the latter is more more common with the average BL sold ...). You just need some practice to do so ... the second or third time it becomes increasingly easy.

On the other hand the leap in rpms by a factor of 1,73 (well, in awkward theory it is SQR(3) ...) is usually not really possible to handle with the <same> setup (theoretically and practically ...).

Switching is one of the best options having in a BL if you live in both worlds, Powerboat and SAW. Practically no one owns only one boat.

I have a NEU2215/1Y layin around (and not spliceable by myself for switching if i am right). Where would you like to use this motor in Powerboat when you are only able to use 6S for fun-rpm? It is basically too big for a 6S-hull and 6S is not enough for a 10S-hull. Sure, you can rape it with 6S2P.
In smaller Boats you do not need a NEU, a cheaper motor is doing fine.

Having a 3040/7 is way more smarter, in star configuration you can use it everywhere. And with that it is easier to sell a motor.
Selling a hot SAW-Motor without switching-option (for a reasonable price) is nearly unpossible if it is a big motor.

Also for the smaller ones like the 22 series i would choose the switching option if i have a high-rpm-high-current-application for the main app. But have the option use this motor in Y for other toys where you are not in need of 300A+.

With that strategy the cost-effectiveness of a lehner rises and ends up in being cheaper than a NEU or Pletti.

Regards