TENSHOCK,NEU, LEHNER wie kommen sie zu vergleichen?

[MiSt]

I have a NEU2215/1Y layin around (and not spliceable by myself for switching if i am right).

Indeed a conversion of a factory configured motor with Y winds is somehow more difficult compared to converting a delta-wound to Y, because you have to open the housing, find the central node and seperate the wires (which is in turn easier than seperating the windings of delta wound motors, because one end of the coil is already open, whereas absolutely ALL wires have to be seperated from each other when converting delta ==> Y)

[Ralf Moser]

Yep, you are right.
But will not help anyway since it opens only the delta option (1440/V times 1.73).
Since this motor is only safe for 40k it sucks now even more

[cohesive]

May I throw a new player in the game?

The tp 4060 boast 6200 watts while a Neu 1527 specs 4500. The tp is lighter and much cheaper??????

How does this play out??? efficiency is important but is it negligable when the overall hp is more and the weight is less when comparing a 90 percent versus say 95 percent? I dont buy any 100 plus efficiency numbers.There has to be some loss. It may be very minimal.

[MiSt]

How does this play out???

A german idiom - literally translated - tells "paper is patient".

More technically/seriously: A horsepower spec. for an electric motor is pure bullshit without specifying the environmental conditions (tolerable rise of temperature and expected lifetime, especially). All DC motors know a specific operating point in their diagrams called "maximum output power". In this situation the losses equal the output power, so this is of no practical interest. The current is then roundabout half of the blocking current, so this theoretical maximum power is strongly depending on the supply voltage and the resistances involved (Motor, Controller, Wiring).

In any real application, including even SAW with boats (!!), an electric motor is operated somehow between the points of maximum efficiency and maximum power.

[cohesive]

indeed a conversion of a factory configured motor with y winds is somehow more difficult compared to converting a delta-wound to y, because you have to open the housing, find the central node and seperate the wires (which is in turn easier than seperating the windings of delta wound motors, because one end of the coil is already open, whereas absolutely all wires have to be seperated from each other when converting delta ==> y)

"Hi,
Yes you have to remove it.Use deep coold and a hammer and a plasitik part that match the inside dia of the stator to bump it out. 12slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phas design better for high powerdensity is a 12 slot 10 pole design and the right stator plates cut out . Best here are the Scorpion HK serie motors. You know this video of the modelhelicopters lifting the lady , http://youtu.be/77uK19KxMuI . Each motor can do 10 KW and each heli can easy lift 30 kg ."


HKIII 4035
scorpion.jpg
How about 3 or less turns at a minimum of 24 volts?

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi Hugh,
the 4035 is a real powerhouse. A shorter 4025 ,12N10P ,and 4x(2x1,18)YY i have does on 10S 3300 SLS Lipo surge 230 Amps with a airplanepropeller 7,5x12,5 .That are 7,2 kw close to 10 horses .So the 4035 can do moore .For an example i show you the stator wound with 6+5 turn 1,6 dia wire for Airplane see pic .This motor has only 514 kv so on 43,5 Volt it turns about 22350 rpm ,free amp 4,6 A .With this wire the motor can eat 180-200 A on 10S . This powerexamples are for 10 second burst maybe moore belong to the cooling.

[cohesive]

Hi Hugh,
the 4035 is a real powerhouse. A shorter 4025 ,12N10P ,and 4x(2x1,18)YY i have does on 10S 3300 SLS Lipo surge 230 Amps with a airplanepropeller 7,5x12,5 .That are 7,2 kw close to 10 horses .So the 4035 can do moore .For an example i show you the stator wound with 6+5 turn 1,6 dia wire for Airplane see pic .This motor has only 514 kv so on 43,5 Volt it turns about 22350 rpm ,free amp 4,6 A .With this wire the motor can eat 180-200 A on 10S . This powerexamples are for 10 second burst maybe moore belong to the cooling.

Thanks for the reply Christian.

I want at least 1400 kv . Im running between 6 an 8s lipo. please explain the staggered wind sequence of 5+6. If Im winding it myself I may want to stay away from sophisticated wind sequences on a first try maybe not.What is your suggestion?

Thanks,
Hubert

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi Hugh,
You need some tools.
First the windingcalculator: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=266 .
Second the how to wind: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=16 , download and run .

At rcgroups Jack will help you .
For 1400 kv you have to wind 2 turn on each statorarm so 4 turn per phase on one half of the stator. Then you have to wind the same 4 wind on the other side of the stator and connect this in parallel to the other side.

With the second tool you can get a pic of the windings. YY mean that every half of the stator is wound like a seperate full working motor and after both side are ready they are conected parallel.first pic of one half stator already wound .This can run.
And don't run the motor unload (over 65000 rpm) as the backiron of the scorpion bell with the magnets is softer iron as it can hold moore magnetic flux.This iron is very soft and at high speed the forc of the magnets will bend the bell,see pic. If you want higher rpm you have to wire a bell of cfk around the ironbell and the ironbell has to be cut in small polesections.

By the way i post here the pic of Andys new propellers you like to see.

[cohesive]

Hi Hugh,
You need some tools.
First the windingcalculator: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=266 .
Second the how to wind: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=16 , download and run .

At rcgroups Jack will help you .
For 1400 kv you have to wind 2 turn on each statorarm so 4 turn per phase on one half of the stator. Then you have to wind the same 4 wind on the other side of the stator and connect this in parallel to the other side.

With the second tool you can get a pic of the windings. YY mean that every half of the stator is wound like a seperate full working motor and after both side are ready they are conected parallel.first pic of one half stator already wound .This can run.
And don't run the motor unload (over 65000 rpm) as the backiron of the scorpion bell with the magnets is softer iron as it can hold moore magnetic flux.This iron is very soft and at high speed the forc of the magnets will bend the bell,see pic. If you want higher rpm you have to wire a bell of cfk around the ironbell and the ironbell has to be cut in small polesections.

By the way i post here the pic of Andys new propellers you like to see.

Thank you. You are too kind. What type of controller, pwm frequency, and timing are you running with this wind/poles? Have you done any work with an FOC style commutation sequence in the bldc controller? The application example Ive decided to work with, has a physical topology using low resistance shunts and opamps to look at the currents on A B C. Id like to send you some notes and examples to review.

I recieved email from you, but could not return a response ???

Im also sorry if I did not pay close attention to your post, but what diameter magnet wire are you showing here, and what is its temp rating?


Hubert

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi,
The 4x(2x1,18) is AWG 17 or singel AWG 11 .so you want double kv than wind 2x(4xAWG17) .with this wire it is better to worke with multistrandwire AWG 11 is not easy to wind as it's a strong rod.
To use thicker wire will cause higher eddycurrent in them and other amp related loss like proximity effekt for close high current wire.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Wire_Gauge .

[cohesive]

Hi,
The 4x(2x1,18) is AWG 17 or singel AWG 11 .so you want double kv than wind 2x(4xAWG17) .with this wire it is better to eworke with multistrandwire AWG 11 is not easy to wind as it's a strong rod.
To use thicker wire will cause higher eddycurrent in them and other amp related loss like proximity effekt for close high current wire.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Wire_Gauge .

Good day gentlemen,
Christian
Is this the diagram for the Y half parallel winding scheme? No interest in 4 phase delta or 6 phase operation? Or just no controllers to test them......

[cohesive]

2014-03-07_19-31-52_795.jpg
Christian,
Getting the wire off this stator was more than fun! Epoxy was on the wires making it difficult to remove from the stator. I did try to be gentle as I know you want to keep the insulating epoxy in place. It still chipped in a few places around the stator. How should I prep this for winding. I looked at the LRK wind and find it straight foward.Im Still trying to understand the YY.

Hubert.

[cohesive]

Hello guys,

from also a more practical point of view, I love to have the option to switch between star and triangle circuit. You see it in the image. Because of that I can make an easy going test run setup with the same engine and lower RPM, get the setup and stability of the boat working in the right manner, and than...switch into the high RPM mode. I think that can save a lot of money at the beginning and all is in one engine available.

Cheers
Robert

Robert, It seems the outrunner could possibly be wound for polyphase operation.

[Ch.Lucas]

Hello Hugh,
sorry for my late response ,was skiing thursday and friday with my children and we have less snow in the alpes totaly different to the Stsates this year.
The yellow pic show YY system .It´s possible to drive each side with a seperate esc but you can switch them parallel on on esc.
The 12slot 10 pol and 14 pol system is a six phase system that can be driven by using the SPS (LRK) wireing with an 3 phase controler that switch double frequenz.

Best way is to go six phase with a six phase controler but there is no controler on the market. Some have test to wire two SPS winding systems like you see in the second pic. SPS start on statorarm 1 and goes to 3 and so every second arm.This motor has to conect to the first controler .Than start a second SPS motor starting from statorarm 2 and goes to 4 and so on to every second arm like befor. This second motor conect to a second esc . So now the motor has also two controler that drive with 30 degree offset like a realy sixphase motor. But note that the sensorless modelmotor esc have somtimes problems switching a singl SPS winding system and with the twin SPS system it can be a goal or the full disaster,burning the hole equipment.

Robert mean not different phase system he say that the delta to Y switching possibility is a great goal as you will have two motors in one .Lehner has this build in his motors . This is possible to do with every 3 phase motor.

[cohesive]

Hello Hugh,
sorry for my late response ,was skiing thursday and friday with my children and we have less snow in the alpes totaly different to the Stsates this year.
The yellow pic show YY system .It´s possible to drive each side with a seperate esc but you can switch them parallel on on esc.
The 12slot 10 pol and 14 pol system is a six phase system that can be driven by using the SPS (LRK) wireing with an 3 phase controler that switch double frequenz.

Best way is to go six phase with a six phase controler but there is no controler on the market. Some have test to wire two SPS winding systems like you see in the second pic. SPS start on statorarm 1 and goes to 3 and so every second arm.This motor has to conect to the first controler .Than start a second SPS motor starting from statorarm 2 and goes to 4 and so on to every second arm like befor. This second motor conect to a second esc . So now the motor has also two controler that drive with 30 degree offset like a realy sixphase motor. But note that the sensorless modelmotor esc have somtimes problems switching a singl SPS winding system and with the twin SPS system it can be a goal or the full disaster,burning the hole equipment.

Robert mean not different phase system he say that the delta to Y switching possibility is a great goal as you will have two motors in one .Lehner has this build in his motors . This is possible to do with every 3 phase motor.

Thank you for the diagram Christian, It seems a full wave 4 phase delta wind would be a good configuration for more power over a given 3 phase bldc design . If you follow the current you will see that all 4 coils are utilized in all 4 switch positions and it wouldnt need as elaborate controller as six phase . I dont know if the hobby market would be willing to pay for such nice toys.

A lab dedicated bldc motor driver is needed to analyze the many different styles and gross outputs of the different wind configurations.

The KT must be referenced to a given winding and switching pattern.What is this insulating fabric you have in the slot while you wind?

TYIA,
Hubert,

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi,
best isulation with Kapton ,Nomex and Polyester .
4 Phase is ok .If you can design your owen controler wy not making a modular magnet motor like 15 Slot 16 pole . Singel controler for each statorarm and you can do like a kit to switch to every motorsize you like ?

[cohesive]

Hi,
best isulation with Kapton ,Nomex and Polyester .
4 Phase is ok .If you can design your own controler wy not making a modular magnet motor like 15 Slot 16 pole . Singel controler for each statorarm and you can do like a kit to switch to every motorsize you like ?

Hello Christian ,even though I was curious about the kapton tape, I found nomex 410 paper. Thank you.


Have you run any test on bearings? Im also considering what bearings would be best for this type of thing. An ABEC 7 hybrid ceramic is preferred in my mind, but at what radial clearance, considering thermal expansion.? The likely hood of receiving a sub par bearing in a hobby motor is high,even scorpion. I learned this from Daniel who upgrades the scorpions for long work duty in military UAVS. The bearings are one of the things addressed in the upgrades. I never talked to him about bearing for a racing boat motor but figure the drones dont need nearly as much rpm for operation and likely run cooler in typical operation.

I will consider different phase options as I contemplate the controller - alot of work.

Thanks again

Hubert

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi,
i use bearing from SKF . Ceramic bearing are better if you like. I make the shaft sliding in the bearing and fasten one ,the bearing inside the motor with screw secure glue somit will not slide .Allway one secure one free so rising heat will not destroy the bearing. Nomex paper is ok .Kapton plastik sheet or tape ,the tapeglue help during work .

[cohesive]

6 on 12.jpgChristian, If an eight pole 6 stator arm is more desirable than a 8 pole 12 stator.
Couldnt you wind just 2 - 6 arms then parallel them ? Seems this would allow you to use all 12 arms but maintain the better 8 pole 6 arm magnetic geometry? Maybe this you tried to explain. Im a bit ignorant to winding a motor. Your time and patience is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Hubert

[Ch.Lucas]

Hi Hugh,

No the 6 slot 8 pole is not desirable. 12 slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phase motordesign, like 3 slot 2 pole ,6s4p,9s6p and 12s8p and so on . Most esc have less problems with that combination and it's a easy wind doing abcabc/abcabc and conect this two seperate wind parallel.