http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...7&d=1449120665
Scorpion 4035 HKIII
Kv 1190 on castle Ice HV v2
Io 4.4 amps @ 22.5 volts
Rm .008 ohms
Druckbare Version
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...7&d=1449120665
Scorpion 4035 HKIII
Kv 1190 on castle Ice HV v2
Io 4.4 amps @ 22.5 volts
Rm .008 ohms
Anhang 82915 Anhang 82916
Hi Everyone,
The 4025 HKIII's original carrier with stator and copper coils weight was 170.8 grams. We are at 181.8 with 5 arms wound of LRK wind without the carrier which is 20 grams and still climbing. Should be interesting to see the final weight after trimming for final assembly. The 236.7 grams is the stock HK5020 weight with carrier stator and copper coils. What I am winding on the 4025 HKIII is 5 turns in 3 strands of 17 Ga.(1.22428 mm)
TTYS
Hugh
Anhang 83036Anhang 83037
600 class 40mmx30mm stator 12N8P 6 turns LRK YY or DD 1.91516 mm. I could have easily put one more turn on for 7 turns for more fill. But I dont want the KV too low. If I terminate in DD then the Kv should be around 2300 in YY I'd expect around 1350. Im thinking later that a 7 turn in DD might be a very good wind for 6s lipo. I can wind the other t600 which is now a 4 turn YY for 2030 Kv.
Photos of the T600 terminated and a load bank for a generator.
Just wanted to share photos of the two T600 40x30's complete.
Thank You
Hubert
Hi,
This is free sharing :)
IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON ENERGY CONVERSION,VOL.21,NO.1,MARCH 200695
Comparison of PM Brushless Motors,Having Either All Teeth or AlternateTeethWound
DahamanIshak,Z.Q.Zhu,SeniorMember,IEEE,and David Howe
One of the reference papers used in Gerling's findings...
It seems Dahamanlshak, Z.Q. Zhu and David Howe suggest through finite element predictions and real practice a few conclusive comparisons of DL and SL motor winds.
*SL's winds have more trapazoidal BEMF that DL's.
*SL's winds have more self and mutual inductance than DL's.
* SL's showed less cogging torque when driven by zero cross algorithms(BLDC) than DL's which would be lower if driven in BLAC.
*Static and output torque output is higher with SL's
*SL's have higher torque density.
And lastly not reported in this paper but should be noted SL's have more copper fill potential !
The BEMF measurements taken on an oscilloscope shown in figures 8,9, and 10 played a major role in the real time confirmation of theory in this Dajaku Gerling reference. Discrete proprietary sensors in and around the stator to measure magneto motor force are not essential for a hobby test bench to confirm harmonics or line thd produced by a FSCWM. Those methods will not capture all the harmonics. Neither will most SA's mostly designed for rf frequencies above 9.5k
Paraphrased conclusion:
The winding factor significantly effects the BEMF waveform as well as the self and mutual inductance's while the motors exhibit low cogging because of the fractional number of slots per pole.
This idea is further confirmed in figures 10, 11, and 12, of Gerling's
Eddy Current Loss Minimization in Rotor Magnets of PM Machines using
High-Efficiency 12-teeth/10-poles Winding Topology
Really amazing to see the significant differences in stator and magnet loss between the two configurations in fig. 11 and 12 that continues even with the overall reduction in the new stator core structures in fig. 8.....
Fig 3 may explain the 12n10p Gerling wind better for some than what has been offered thus far. I'm still trying to grasp it before an attempt with no copper to waste.
The SL and DL stator core structures are very also prototype worthy Id think.
SL Scorpion HK 5020 YY 24 turns 1.23mm. Took a peep inside the factory bearings and want to test full compliment deep grove radial hybrids. Noticed these run grease which usually reduces the rpm rating. Seems like alternating teeth with flatter top is better for bldc commutation and maybe can be improved upon in efficiency and reduction of rotor and magnet loss with magnet segmenting, axial pole pairs, flux barriers, and multi stranding vs big mono wire. The beginning of a parallel slot 12 tooth stator. CL and other reputable sources report 70% fill with parallel slots. This is the beginnings of one of my prototype stators with slot and relevant dimensional numbers from Christian.
Anhang 84342Anhang 84343
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment....2&d=1456696886
Full compliment all ceramic bearings in a 19x10x5mm are upwards of $160.00 usd a pair. Maybe I'll ask for a working sample for test......
Without a single more manufacturing process that alone would literally double the price of this motor. Would it yield anything in efficiency if PO=torque*rpm. Suppose you happen to get consistently more rpm and triplen current insulation from their use.Then maybe it would.
For Thd measurements would typically only look to the 50th harmonic so for 1k that would be out to 50khz, over double the highest audible. There is also still reason in my reading to use an insulated bearing. Non insulated can carry the triplen harmonic currents. If the steel shafts are not expanding from heat I see no reason you wouldn't be able to use a full ceramic. It is stronger, has less drag, and is electrically insulated.
What led me here is a crude rta measurement taken in an acoustically unstable enviroment with the S6 Edge. You'd be impressed by the full RTA features on a phone.:jaw:
A 70 db triplen seen at 300hz fundamental a 2.7khz whistle Anhang 84410..... this one is negligible as no elevated heat shows and ill never run with no load and very little throttle - the point at which this reading was taken. It seems through further investigation that the non insulated bearings can carry those currents and create more inefficiency. It also appears that some engineers double or enlarge the size of the neutrals to also deal as they can see 173% more current than the phase currents. All this is worth a personal test for me since I've yet to see any.
http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1456621668
Anhang 84436Anhang 84437
Working on the test stand this is what 30,000 rpm looks like on a non proprietary children's project optical tach.:lol:
Basic Stamp2 MCU Dev. board with secrethttp://helifreak.com/images/smilies/5grouphug.gif3 wire optical switch and 3900 series 256 x 64 Noritake graphic VFD for tach readout. Serial hookup for smart serial lcd is is not too complicated I believe. I think 3 wires.... display serial Rx to an MCU io , ground ,and +5 volts.Just like the photo switch. http://helifreak.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif
Anhang 84446
No more waiting for logging to upload or drill estimates. We have real time now and debug to screen. More work on a kitchen test stand...... Stamp2 can read a 250Khz pulse train so I think I could use 2 or 4 teeth and get better resolution possibly.
Until next post
Danke,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwYY...ature=youtu.be
Does anyone here know what beat gold is? For me it is headphones created by Dr Dre. a famous US music producer but on another forum "beatgold" was the term used to add eddy current?????????
Guess not... LOL
Wassup CL smooth...
I await the exclusive consortium's photos of this 1.9mm mono wire SCDD SL wind in a dual layer then I want them to add a turn!!! The world will soon know what we do about these people and this person.
Take care.
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...id=84926&stc=1
Hubert
Hammered skipped tooth China (Align RCM-BL700MX) can terminate as parallel 3 tooth wyes or deltas 7 Turns Avg. Diameter 1.91516 mm S.C.D.D. wind .Even though it is not new or radical it is verified.... A school of thought on encapsulation and removing heat that differs from the reptilian gurus formed using UHU :doh:. Opaque.... It is also good for making windings proprietary.
http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads...2tc-2parts.pdf
Raw with no encapsulation or insulation. You see in photo Apprx. 452.7 grams with shaft vs stock 405 grams with insulation and encapsulation. MX-ers weigh yours. This is a minimum of 36.2495 kcmils, and 18.368 mm^2 cross sectional area. Original area is 7.6mm^2, so we have here a 133% increase in copper using the LRK's and IEEE's teams push it's all finished ...and truly believe with the wasted "cooling" space you see one more turn is likely in there if you lubricate and needle the wire. With 10 years r&d and a masters proprietary knowledge one can go ahead and achieve 152% increase in a DL on this motor and post it. It should be empirically enlightening.
More photos. Nothing radical or new just a single layer parallel wye - a rare sighting from the farm. Very simple to terminate. 2 Wye bundles I created by twisting and soldering the ends of each 3 tooth motor's phases with rohs compliant lead free silver solder, then all starts A II a, B II b,C II c, is parallel so dual strand 1.9...mm conductors to form U.V.W. . 4 conductor U.V.W. motor terminals is DD. You would simply create each 3 tooth motor's U.V.W. 2 conductor motor terminals by paralleling the start and end of each phase to one another AE II bS, bE II CS, CE II AS.... aE II BS, BE II cS, cE II aS. Then parallel those 2 conductor motor terminals from each motor U II U, V II V, and W II W. So now heavier current higher revving DD is U,V,W, motor terminals made up of 4 x 1.9...mm conductors. I really wonder should I take another piece of 1.9 and wrap it around the wye bundles and solder it in place to hold the extra triplen currents.
Edit: Please don't be confused by photo 3. It is each wires 180 degree opposite that is paralleled with not the wire beside it in the photo.
Why not take motor constants and verify trap BEMF and harmony in FFT next? http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/wcf/...ilies/dumm.gif
Hi Hubert,
your work an the documentation of it is great.
I always try to read/translate your posts and sometimes I understand it as well.
It's a pity that no one writes something in this Thread, because I think you have very much skills in what you do and a dialogue would be even more interesting.
I am a user of a electronic-cigarette. The maximum you can do is "making the coils your own", and if the coils are very strange and freaky in a positive way it is called COIL-PORN.
Hubert, your selfmade electronic Motors are a kind of bigger Coil-Porn! I like watching the Photos.
Go on like this!
:prost:
Sorry for my bad english and the lot of "off topic".
Hi Tobi,
Thanks! Its a crusade.... Fine if no comments maybe people smarter to just to observe. It is better than preposterous keyboarders in other places so it is good. It may be hard to have continual dialog as I have no real direction in the thread other than to research motor design information apply and confirm whenever possible and share the simple truth from test and academic research. No false claims ,no advertisement to sell friends or my motors, just test and data collection with research findings from masters and dr manuals in the field as guide to confirm any tangible application of theory. Working on 7.5k views so someone is reading here and though they do not speak much they can't all be haters.....so No worries.... I will continue to post more interesting work. And be sure If no one talk I do not take offense but instead am rather flattered and appreciative of the lack of negativity if nothing else!!!
Thank you for your encouragement. I am the one that has the language barrier problem not you....:)
Hubert
Here is a very very interesting thread that may help us DIY motor and prop enthusiast. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2337523. Dynamic propeller Balance Build.
Hubert
Here is another on new magnet tech that may make rare earths obsolete. http://www.designworldonline.com/com...ength-magnets/
Hi Christian,
In response to your post on rc line. It appears the newer double helix wind surrounding a two poles rotor each with an opening angle of 45 degrees would form a square ABC rhombic phase matrix under each pole with 90 degree resultant vectors? Each 180 degree coil set would be set at 120 degrees apart. Wouldn't the 4,8,10,12,14,16 higher pole counts increase the switching loss at high speeds?So for high speed it seems 2 or 4 poles would be better in terms of switching loss? What are the torque ripple characteristics of a skewed winding as compared to straight in a slotless motor?
Anyone else here is free to give answers as well.
Hubert
In the meantime here is the BEMF scope shots @ apprx. 15.5k rpm from the SL MX700. Panned out to be 835 Kv on the optical tachometer. Compare the 2nd and 3rd photo taken at 2,250 rpm and you can see the harmonics associated with loss amplitudes rise with an increase in rpm . Still we can see the crest and troughs starting to flatten confirming a better trapezoidal BEMF for zero cross drives. A pure sinus has shown to be better for BLAC or but not superior to trapezoidal on BLDC drives. What most hobbyist use. The last photo was the Bemf and FFT analysis taken across a phase and the neutral line. I believes it illustrates the extra triplen current and noise in the neutral line. I could be wrong but clearly more harmonics are being produced here. This seems to agree with the academic explanation for 170% increase of triplen seen it the neutral lines.
Hubert
This is a photo of new tech in the USA from Thingap. The IEEE confirm 30% more power density in printed or coils etched on flexible pcb.
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...id=85570&stc=1
Hubert
FYI
Ive found that actually Slotless winding dont have to be hard to repeat or "spaghetti". Rhombic or similar skewed windings can be repeated with a fair amount of consistency using a sliding mandrel. The patent for such a mandrel lies here in the US. Definitely does not have to be indiscriminately laid. In some slotless motors u can see a definitive pattern overlapping placing at least 1 wire from each phase under a pole.
Hubert
Hi Christian,
You do not talk much here but this is the actual laser cutting vendor that will provide the lamination's for the stator designs we've tossed back n forth. We really need to talk because some type of non-disclosure agreement needs to be drafted and signed by such vendors....
Send me email soon. I'm ready to get these done.
Man braucht nicht viel hier reden, aber das ist die eigentliche Laserschneid Anbieter, der die Laminierung der für den Stator-Designs bieten wir kommen wieder n her geworfen haben. Wir müssen reden wirklich, weil irgendeine Art von Geheimhaltungsvereinbarung muss von solchen Anbietern ausgearbeitet und unterzeichnet werden ....
A video of the laser cutting process for those interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MpZ2a75OwQ
Hubert
Hello ,
Unfortunately I have to inform everyone the SPS stator suggestion may be a bust. After a year of winding testing and encouragement that this was the best design I have been informed that no flux analysis work has been done on the stator. I guess my original sent plan to do so just had some numbers arbitrarily set in place and sent back. Well we know that is a hit or miss. The prototype will cost a considerable amount in .005 hiperco 50. Not specifically but close to 2 grand!! I was going to give this the best opportunity to win or show gains but it is impossible for me to be able to also finance 10000 dollar analysis software for a prototype already at the hands of someone else that merely had to take a few minutes away from posting on 5 forums about such things and actually nurture its success but they spend too much time typing everywhere so they have no time.:)
So,
Ill let you know how it goes. I guess I will backtrack to motor solve USA and pay for the analysis as well. If it fail SPS is not my child but someone else's so if they do not tell the caregiver the right food the baby cannot be healthy. Nevertheless I will stand by its failure or success on my own accord and will be ready to take all the criticism that arise. No need to post what you cant stand behind and take the heat for if you are wrong. I will be right here with bulls eye on chest. Sorry about suggestions that people don't guide you fully through. It is of no service to anyone. So it is best I lock my back door . You can waste a lot of time and money on pieces of an idea or theory with no real meat. I have already so I will see it through.
You all see clearly how much of my own time and effort I spend. If one doesn't have 30 min time to foster his own ideas and suggestions to other modelers, no need to suggest anything.
God Bless.
Back to school....
Hubert
I have and old 1977 242 special prepped 4 cylinder volvo with 22 pounds of boost that will beat Maserati GT on the autobahn any day. It does have a Maserati turbo knock computer though..... only 8 valves!!!
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...DSC00077-1.jpg
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...9/DSC00080.jpg
the "family car" the t6 motor can put 700 hp to the ground on e85 and stock internals my friend. The Group A 4 cylinders Grotis head bricks consistently ruled BMW v8's in the mid 80's BTCC
Im enjoying my cars too including the AWD v8. :) Net surfers... go on you tube and watch a prepped t5 run down a Lamborghini !
A family car
All the motors and perspective BLDC drives will be moved to my blog. Anyone is welcome to visit but you will have to sign in to see everything and that means Ill know if you've been there...*pleased*
God Bless
Hubert.
Delivered In godspeed an epiphany...... https://www.unibw.de/rz/dokumente/ge...220917&fd=kein
I can look to the fellow IEEE Members and ensure great amendments for better flux performance and hysteresis rejection within the SPS design.
Watch me...your purpose here.
God Bless
Hubert
Looks to be more field confirmation of DahamanIshak ,Z.Q.Zhu, Senior Member, IEEE, and David Howe findings on Single and Dual layer FSCW bldc motors
"In that case the stock motor had a 780 Kv and the LRK-Y wind was predicted to produce a 781 Kv and I liked that because it compared the dLRK and LRK winds at the same Kv rating.
The details are all in that post and my conclusion was that by going to that LRK-Y wind gave me an 8% increase in full throttle RPM, a 48% reduction in current draw, and a 15% increase in thrust. So if you were looking for a wind that would give you much better duration out of a battery and slight increases in full throttle RPM and speed, this would be a good wind. And it did that at 116W at full throttle. "
~Jackerbes Rc groups~
No matter what forums have to offer anyone's best bet is a good education and real world testing. Do these thing and an entirely different world becomes clear. You will be happy and well informed. The line between helping modelers and vendor$ is very obscure so please be aware in your travels seeking knowledge and what really motivates some of the postings you read on forums.
God Bless
Cohesive
Zeus wire sent me a few samples of PEEK coated magnet wire for review. I have already received much opinion from non active forum geniuses who quite obviously do not understand professional courtesy over .001watt per meter kelvin variance in thermal conductivity as compared to some PAI's. It should be obvious if someone gives you 3 spools of working samples that you would be professionally courteous and wind at least 1 motor in the material. This allows you to give the representative real feedback from the field which could be applied to make the product better. Just no way around the ignorance that runs abundant on model forums or the geniuses who spend their majority of time at a keyboard.Who spends critical design time arguing 1/100th of a watt per meterkelvin of dissipation? Somebody with nothing better to do.
Truly Pathetic!
Happy Boating
Hubert
What about hallbach on stacked axial inrunners?
WOW
http://goldeneye.ethz.ch/motoren/ele...unner/index_EN
double post
wy not doubleside motor ,has double trustsurface ,much higher torque ability .Trustsurface rule , https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publ...C&locale=de_EP .
Yes right Christian why not. It can be ready in time to install in your saw boat but I was thinking in terms of this decade....:laugh:
Trying to find this valence and body kit if you can sen me a link. The family car......I drive bricks homie *pleased*
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...5jjhqg9mok.jpg
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...fmjgiocheb.jpg
Perfect example of school of croco dl winds and fitment problems associated.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/..._1.4_YY_88.jpg
"f you get 20 turns in there you will get 420 kv but you probably have to go to 1.27mm wire.
This is a 5020 wound with 1.4mm 8+8 YY 525kv.
(kv shown are measured on jive. At 18* add around 10kv to each number)"
Do open eyes think it would be difficult to wind 16 turns of 16 ga or larger wire in a skipped tooth wind on the stator above? The parallel winds all still apply only I can get more copper in and all the advantages of skipped tooth winds are inherent. I put SL winds against any powercroco DL in a boat on sensorless drives. You can tell him I said it.
For boaters with a 5020 scorpion how about 10 to 12 turns SL in 1.9mm YY kv should be around 700-900. That will pull a prop for sure. A 12n10p the single layer will make more torque and do it easier than a DL on BLDC drives. Follow slow turning speed plane design theory if you choose. In my experience single coil winding fits wire easier. All the well thought out 4-3-2-1 sequencing to fit large wire DL is a waste of time for boaters and only gets harder after each coil group.My experience says it is silly to go through it all for less.
Unfortunate to sell friends outrunners people don't tell you any of this dual layer vs single layer or about all the loss associated with a high rpm outrunner as compared to a Nue or Lehner inrunner in a boat.Of course they knew. Not friends anymore :confused: so all the places their motor can improve is now being brought to light through forum piss matches after saying its the way to go.Same guys different faces. Innocent modelers with privateer money are simply collateral damage in vendor wars. The IEEE has a plethora of valid information on the subject matter. Go to the site sometime and treat yourself to some profit free reality.
God Bless
Hubert
Hi.
Wie schaut es in der Praxis aus?
Papier ist geduldig.
Dann wirst du ja bestimmt mal eins deiner Boote gefahren haben z.b. mit nen 4035 12N10P ein mal in YY und ein mal als SPS.
Gleicher Motor,ca.gleiche KV,Prop Accu,Wasser gleich usw.
Hast dann ja bestimmt auch Logdaten von den fahrten,Bilder und Videos vom Boot usw.
Wie schaut der REALE Vergleich aus?
Sprich was geht an Strom durch,wie warm werden die Motorn,wie schnell läuft das Boot usw.
Da wäre ja mal eine gegenüberstellung der Daten interessant.
Und dann die große frage...merkt man es im Wasser???
Brauche ich den extremen Füllgrad oder ist es besser wenn ich etwas weniger habe aber ne besser Kühlung.
Wie groß ist der Quantensprung zur SPS Wicklung?
Ich persönlich sehe das so das viele Wege nach Rom führen.
Du gehst den einen Weg,ich nen anderen,und der nächste nen ganz wo anders lang und doch kommen wir alle an.
Gruß Ralf!
Sound like the same old argument that doesn't change the facts. Common sense tells you why:
http://www.braintrust.at/2007/ds/rc/..._1512_cans.jpg
Neu
http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/at...g?d=1291738471
Lehner
With such abundance of copper and absolute lack of space what happens with the cooling in a Neu or Lehner inrunner?:jaw: Amazing to think it would be a real problem for a sl outrunner with 6 totally open teeth underneath a can circulating air and radial fan. The idea that the larger CCSA not just more copper but circular mills reducing the electrical drag (resistance) would have a net detrimental effect on performance because of lack of cooling (heat caused by friction) sounds well thought out wouldn't you say? Since you have a grasp on biblical esc logs. I'm sure you will show yours that show the superior performance of a DL compared to a single layer in the same turn and possibly the larger ga. it fits? I already know as many reputable non profiteering motor building EE's have shown. Better if you prove it to yourself and them with a datalog:)
A true single phase sector may entail a slight bit more than just skipped teeth winding. But anyway Here is a kontronics 800 pyro 7 + 7 I wound( a general google search now). The 7 +7 was found most efficient pyro 800 wind by your school out of dl winds. Does it look airy? If you read the thread you will also see real field accounts of the improvement seen in sl compared to dl by modelers not associated with me in any form or fashion.
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/upl...0415_thumb.jpg
God Bless
Cohesive