Druckbare Version
Christian,
Please look here http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.z...-motors-3.html
It says the 8 pole 12 stator ABCABC works but not well it says a 8 pole 6 is a better configuration like a 10 pole 12arm config. For a 9 arm it suggest AaABbBCcC. Is this chart incorrect? Do you have one that is better?
Hubert
Don't look at this plate it is not right. Look at the windingconfigurator ,there you will find the windingfactor . It tells you how much of the winding is involved producing torque . Closer to 1 is better .you will see that 12slot8pole has about 0,8330.. Is very good only 12slot10 and 14 pole have 0,93... . 9slot 8pole has 0,945... Best of,but every phase 120 degree orientated so the rotorbell will bend hard to one side. Thats bad.
As you are a electronic guru you can find some little plus if you build a esc that has 3 two phase controler that switch not only 3 phase 120 degree you can switch every phase with 180 degree if you feed every phase seperate.
No guru here although I think a dedicated controller could be built around your wind styles. I plan to stay in touch with u all as long as you allow.If I was a guru it would be HRK not LRK. You guys are the gurus here no doubt. Nevertheless Id hope you and Micheal would take a serious look at the TI INSTASPIN commutation link I posted. Field Oriented Commutation is what I want to try. Christian ill be CNC certified in july maybe we need to talk about the ideal outrunner can and build it.Zitat:
Zitat von Ch.Lucas
HAHA see without broadening my horizons I would have been stuck with the incorrect information on this AMERICAN link.This is the very reason I came here to talk to you guys. Alot of incorrect shit gets passed along over here........in the states. I wonder do these guys even know you as they incorrectly post your information? UNREAL!
What radial clearance and ABEC ratings are the snk's you use? When I used to skateboard, bearings that just read "GERMANY" on the shields were the smoothest free rolling bearing we could get. I always wondered the companies name who made them???
Im sure you,Micheal, and the guys know about these but just in case.......
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l140/...XhXsZ1upMQ.jpg
Low ESR 1 FARAD supercaps. Wire 8 of these in series and have a low profile 1 farad cap bank for 10s. I will definately be testing these as soon as they arrive in the mail.
Hubert
"Low ESR" has a little bit of a different meaning here, compared to the one in the world of aluminium electrolytics :cool:
http://industrial.panasonic.com/jp/i...GC_E/TGC_E.pdf page 15/17 "Maximum operating (discharge) Current"
Zitat:
Zitat von MiSt
Thank you Micheal:)
Anhang 68696Good evening ChristianZitat:
Zitat von Ch.Lucas
is this the correct parallel scheme for 8 pole 12 arm configuration?
Thanks
Hubert
Zitat:
Zitat von cohesive
Micheal, have you had the time to look at the performance of lithium based supercaps versus aluminium electrolytics ? A bit off topic I know.
Anhang 68779
Well ... the ESR of the lithium supercaps is as well not really impressive compared to the one of aluminium (especially dedicated low-ESR) electrolytic capacitors, and is quite high compared to LiPos themselves. If you form 1F of ALs, you get Microohms due to the paralleling ...
... even worse one needs to put two of them in series per cell, because of the 2,7V rating, even doubling the ESR then.
http://www.tecategroup.com/capacitor...burst/TPLS.pdf
In the car-HIFI area, people use huge ALs of 1F to lower the burst impedance of the car's battery. But they are bigger and heavier :rolleyes:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/like/27129642...s=true&viphx=1
Hi Hugh,
yes it´s right . You have only to switch the start ABC togethter . The end ABC have only be switched together on each side seperate . Hope you understand ,otherwise i will draw it.
Zitat:
Zitat von MiSt
I think I would accept the tradeoff; you cant have it all .......No need for me to look at links to Hifi audio electrolytics, after 25 years of hifi car stereo experience (M.E.C.P.master certified installer). Do you think the idea of a big azz car stereo 1 farad 16 volt cap, the size of a beer can, is at all practical for rc boats? in my opinion it isnt. Nor is the parallelling of 3,030 330uf AL electrolytics capacitors (what schulze uses) versus 18 of the supercaps @ 50 volts respectively, simply for a lower ESR.
Micheal,
I realize the ESR, or dissipation factor, is inversely related to the quality factor or Q of the capacitor but.... is 3000 of them practical for 1 farad of capacitance In an rc boat built for SAW?
Anhang 688273030 of these in a parallel configuration sounds like a winner http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...c/rolleyes.gif.............
Happy Boating
Hubert
"
Supercapacitors have been around for years, but were initially very low current devices such as the Panasonic gold cap, with high ESR, suitable for RTC and memory backup. The breakthrough in the last 10 years or so has to be reduce the ESR so supercapacitors can deliver high power."
link http://www.energyharvestingjournal.c...sp?sessionid=1
The hint on Car-HiFi was pure irony.
Super-Caps have improved a lot, but are powers of ten worse than optimized ALs concerning ESR. ESR stands for equivalent series resistance and marks the lowest achieveable impedance of the device: The pure ohmic one remaining after the capacitive part reached "zero". Another important parameter - in fact the most important - is the tolerable ripple current. If this value is low compared to the real ripple current during partial throttle cruising, the capacitors are blown sooner or later.
Plenty of capacitance on controller supply lines is mainy required during reduced throttle operation. This is no typical SAW (full throttle) way of operation - isn't it? Anyway it is best practice (not all developers of electronics worldwide are complete idoiots ...) to parallel several AL-electrolytics with optimized low-ESR/high ripple current characteristics. The temperature rating - by the way - is irrelevant in those matters, but typically you will not get the top-of-the-pops with only a 85°C rating, because this makes no commercial sense for the manufacturers.
The picture you published in post 50 is showing a good way of connecting/soldering those capacitors, because you need to keep their wiring short (otherwise you get undesired inductances from the wire lengths). Therefore some of the capacitor-banks sold are pure bullshit when connected via long cables, with wire gauge being less important compared to length. It is much better to do it like pictured, and this way it is in principle also recommended by Schulze when adding additional capacitance.
To lower inductance of supply itself and save capacitors, it is recommended to keep the supply wiring as short as possible and use 2-3 parallel cables instead of a single thick one, for example 2x 1,5mm² + x 1mm² perform much better than 4mm², although same amount of copper, because at same length they have only 1/3 of inductance.
"Plenty of capacitance on controller supply lines is mainy required during reduced throttle operation. This is no typical SAW (full throttle) way of operation - isn't it? Anyway it is best practice (not all developers of electronics worldwide are complete idoiots ...) to parallel several AL-electrolytics with optimized low-ESR/higripple current characteristics. The temperature rating - by the way - is irrelevarnt in those matters, but typically you will not get the top-of-the-pops with only a 85°C rating, because this makes no commercial sense for the manufacturers."
ESR stands for equivalent resistance - It continues to lower in development of the super caps.
Yes the esc struggles less @ wot but it has to get there and amperage punch added on the low end will facilitate hole shot acceleration, leaving more time for top end at the traps. Plus they help protect the precious BLDC controller most important $$$$. If the caps are balanced voltage and charge protected they will last vitrtually forever. If the caps get up to 185 degrees F - too hot to touch the problem causing it wont be solved be a 105c rated one. The caps will deliver at the peaks of amp draw - whatever the source or cause in normal operation isnt of any concern.The overall series resistance will lower by using the appropriately selected balancing circuitry fastened individually on each on each cap.
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...3&d=1396039151
Beware the fisherman, who is casting out his line into a dried up river bed.
Don't try to tell him, 'cos he won't believe you.
Throw some bread to the ducks instead, it's easier that way
(Tony Banks from Genesis)
Excuse me "Sika" , you didnt introduce yourself, If you think that all meaningful conversation about super capacitors, there application,or effectiveness, stops with what Micheal says I have to ask why are you talking?There are new developments in this capacitor technology that are the buzz in Electrical Engineers ears. Are you one? While I respect and and welcome Micheals input - as I asked for it, your references to a british keyboarder accomplish what? If youve something useful to add add it but be mindful that this isnt a discussion about a grammy ,keyboardist or a dry riverbed. I appreciate meaningful input without ad hominem or bullshit.Zitat:
Zitat von Sika
Danke,
Hubert
It's out of a beautiful song (Heathaze) from Album "Duke" of my favourite Band, and this part of the lyrics is my signature here since years ... :cool:Zitat:
Beware the fisherman, who is casting out his line into a dried up river bed.
Don't try to tell him, 'cos he won't believe you.
Throw some bread to the ducks instead, it's easier that way
(Tony Banks from Genesis)
Oh hes reciting your signature maybe a kiss is in order:laugh: anyways you can get the caps in milliohms now or just run a series parallel configuration.Zitat:
Zitat von MiSt
The super caps mentioned are 5,5V max. and 50mOhm each. To be safe for 63V you need to put 12 in series, which gives about 600 mOhm.
Good 5000mAh LiPo cells got a Ri or impedance of about 1mOhm when warm, thus a 10s1p pack has 10 mOhms.
Rubicon ZLH 63V 470uF got an impedance of 43 mOhm each, 10 in parallel and you are at about 4.3 mOhm.
Adding a 4.3 mOhm caps buffer very close to the FETs helps to buffer voltage spikes against the 10 mOhms of the battery pack - to which the Ri/ESR of cables and connectors needs to be added.
Putting a block of 600 mOhm super caps anywhere in there is completely useless.
This is what Michael was trying to say for several posts - so I was reminding him of his signature... quak, quak, quak,...
Joerg
Anhang 68878
Thats nice It makes me wonder how 5 d-sized 300 farad maxwells can start an automobile. I guess they do that as well as the things mentioned about supercaps below supplying current in the milli amps?
Low amperage ideas:http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/dry.gif
"Supercapacitors or UltraCapacitors were initially used by the US military to start the engines of tanks and submarines. Most applications now are in small appliances, handheld electronics and hybrid electric vehicles.
NASA has a research project to use supercapacitors in an electric bus called the Hybrid Electric Transit Bus. The energy used to start the engine and accelerate the bus is regenerated from braking. During test runs, a bus loaded with 30 supercapacitors, each of them weighing 32 kg and releasing energy of 50 kJ at 200 V managed to run for four miles.
GM Super CapacitorIn most hybrid vehicles, 42 V super capacitors are used. General Motors has developed a pickup truck with a V8 engine that uses the supercapacitor / ultra capacitor to replace the battery. The efficiency of the engine rose by 14%. The supercapacitor supplies energy to the alternator. Toyota has developed a diesel engine using the same technology and it is claimed to use just 2.7 liters of fuel per 100 km."
http://supercapacitors.org/GM_Fuel_Cell_Stack.jpg
~ http://supercapacitors.org/ ~
Anhang 68882 At far right a special lot of Low ESR 100 volts caps for my Ultra HV BLDC prototype. I know about AL electrolytics, but there has got to be a way or will be a way to utilize such wonderful capacitance in a compact form factor.
16 rows of 12 paralleled for (192) 37.5 mohms or 2,126 paralleled AL's at a much lower ESR. whats better? Considering all things. What would happen if I introduced ceramics on top of the supers? do you think the idea of 1 farad is simply overkill? In car stereo which you mentioned AL 1 farads are common in 1000 -1500 watt setups and the headlights still dim with 775 CCA batteries on the low frequency transients 1500 watts were running 10kw or more.
Whats that gonna do? :laugh:
Anhang 68884
I do 4 stacks of this for 37.5 mohms and so on.......
You use your super caps, I feed the ducks...
You should enjoy that........Zitat:
Zitat von Sika
Quack!
Anhang 69061Anhang 69060
Tried and true traditional 7500uf AL electrolytics cap banks I built .I piggy back with small ceramics across the leads.
but heres photos of a supercap amp that passes 70 ampereshttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...stirthepot.gif
Anhang 69058
Anhang 69059
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...rum/trolls.gif
..
Good day all. Happy birthday Christian, . Here look at the components for the BLDC. You dream 6 phase controller in theory the bridge just adds 3 more high low channels with possibly additional current watchdogs using a shunt and op amps. Ir also just sent me a letter of a new 60 volt "strong fet". I havent had time to look at it yet.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...MT05X1IlA5D_zg
Happy boating
Hubert
Anhang 69474
Christian, one thing about materials that wasnt discussed on the other forum in the US was the magnetic properties and how some metals lose, change, or maintain their magnetic properties in heat treatment processes, I thought of this when Micheal made a comment about the stainless steel shells magnetic properties not being ideal and the 440C stainless, in the prop thread, that maintains its magnetism though all heat treatments. I do not know if this would be a good thing in that specific case, but I do wonder about the can of an outrunner and the ideal materials from which they should be made. You had one that lost its roundness due to high rpm, I remember the wire fix but wonder what materials would give you the ideal mechanical properties for high rpm but also exhibit excellent electrical properties? I would also like to know more about the SNK bearing you run.
Thank you for your time gentlemen
Hubert
Greetings gentlemen. Looking at the TI insta spin video and reading a microchip app note, It seems that it is just a fancy name for Field oriented commutation.In a non - hall format this seemed to me to be the best style for what we do.Is there something better? In the end would it be in anyones opinion that if a high quality controller was to be built it have hall sensor capability?
I know that hacker had released airplane packaged "sinus drive" with motor and controller. I assume using a sinusoidal commutation on a pm motor? Could it be right? I dont know if the airplanes are different as far as demands, but it certainly seems a boats exerts varying load on an electric motor.
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment....9&d=1413857474http://www.helifreak.com/attachment....0&d=1413857474
My Turnigy T600 rework:
Originally 1400kv @ 8 turns delta of unknown small gauge multistrand
4030 stator with 5+6 STSD turns of 1.3mm Fosgate magnet wire.
Kapton and Nomex insulated.
3-100 k rpm capable ceramic hybrid bearings
for practice....
Hope to run ABCABC/ABCABC for parallel or six phase operation.
Remember...... http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...4&d=1393195687
Hubert
Hit 3,515
Hi Christian, Micheal, Guys...
Just wanted to share where I am at with winding motors now.
Kontronics Pyro 800 6 + 6 YY 1.53162mm (15Ga.) mono wire Kv 485
Hubert
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/upl...0415_thumb.jpg
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/upl...3066_thumb.jpg
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment....7&d=1447853211
Generated BEMF @ 2,250 rpm
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/...pyro%20800.jpg
Pyro 800 7 + 7 YY 15Ga. 420 Kv
Hubert
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/att...6&d=1448130116
I ordered some carbon fiber props to load motors and log the data.
Hi Hugh,
be careful ,this motor can power yourself standing on a surfbord . Good job .
Thanks Chris,
Safety will be in place.
Hubert
Anhang 82697
apc1708e ( 432mm X 203mm)
Products came.
Hi
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/upl...6606_thumb.jpg
HK III 4035 two strands of 16 Ga.(1.35mm measured) 3 + 3 parallel wye ~ 990 Kv
Termination for parallel wye. The two strand groups weren't too difficult to manage.
Anhang 82785
Hubert
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/upl...2551_thumb.jpg
Free from the ESC I used the "drill method" and calculated a kv of a 1040 Using the oscilloscope and a electric hand drill rated at 2250rpm.
On the Castle Ice I logged an Io of 4.4 amp @ 22.5 volts the Kv was logged at approximately 1190. I take the Rm measurement using 4 wire method. A 2250mah 3s lipo a 10 watt 20 ohm resistor and two DMM's. I will report back shortly.
Thanks
Hubert
Anhang 82865
I started a 7 turn LRK YY on a 40 x 30mm Turnigy T600 stator with 13 ga. (1.91516 mm) If it returns a good numbers I think the MKIII 4025 I have here will be wound similarly. Maybe it will suffer badly from skin effect and I wont.....
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/pub...ault/coule.gif
Happy Boating
Hubert