TENSHOCK,NEU, LEHNER wie kommen sie zu vergleichen? [Archiv]

cohesive

19.February.2014, 07:56

Greeting from the USA. I wanted to get your opinions on these 3 motors. I know alot more about the lehner and Neu motors than the tenshock 2760 series. How do you think these motors compare. If you rated them 1,2,3, what would be you pick and why?

I want to power a new saw boat and am trying to decide on the best performer.

Thanks,
Cohesive

Gruß aus den USA. Ich wollte Ihre Meinung zu diesen 3-Motoren zu bekommen. Ich kenne eine Menge mehr über die Lehner und Neu-Motoren als die Serie Tenshock 2760. Wie denken Sie, diese Motoren zu vergleichen. Wenn man sie bewertet 1,2,3, was wäre Sie wählen, und warum?

Ich möchte eine neue Säge Boot antreiben und ich versuche, auf den besten Darsteller entscheiden.

Danke,

kohäsiv

Jo-nny

19.February.2014, 09:12

MiSt

19.February.2014, 11:55

... Lehner and NEU Motors are much more efficient because of their higher power density in contrast to the Tenshock.
The LMT´s have got a lot more precision- and mechanical strength of rotation Speed than the TS ...

Any real technical proof for this or just rumours?

Tenshock is more or less a Neu clone (multi-pole inrunner with slotted windings in the stator). Lehner has a completely different construction principle (two-pole inrunner with self-supporting winding).

Jo-nny

19.February.2014, 12:52

Hello Michael,

I think, the more efficiency results out of the closer winding.

The precision-rotation-speed results out of the high efficiency.

Am i wrong?

Lehner has a completely different construction principle (two-pole inrunner with self-supporting winding).

Isn´t that the same like "more efficiency"?

MiSt

19.February.2014, 13:29

Sorry, that is complete nonsense.

Losses inside an electrical DC motor with permanent magnets have several reasons, from which the main ones are:
- mechanical (quality of bearings, air displacement for example by an air cooling)
- ohmical (resistance of the windings)
- inductive (eddy current losses)
- magnetical (air gap width)

Slotted windings (Neu, Tenshock, Leopard, TP, ...)
+ high reproducability during manufacturing even for drunken or stoned workers
+ very small air gaps feasible at no risk of damage to the windings
- comparably high eddy current losses

Self-supporting windings (Lehner, Kontronik, cheap chinese motors)
- usually bigger air gaps needed for riskless operation
- bad reproducability during manufacturing ("spaghetti windings")

Efficiency differences between the mentioned OEMs are in the single percent range, in many cases only in the fraction of percent range, what regards the efficiency peak's height. Much more important is whether the efficiency is broad-banded, and at which operating current the peak is located.

Moreover, it has to be checked carefully whether the data is calculated/extrapolated or measured (it is common practice for DC motors to officialize calculated data due to the simple physics, so very rarely the data is truly measured. Mabuchi or Johnson data is all calculated, as is Lehner's).

A controller's inner resistance might be included in the data and documented as such (as will be in real life - rarely the case), or the data is calculated without any (yielding "better" results).

So there is no way except for comparing the motors individually for the specific purpose, especially as it is not for sure whether the a 2, 4 or 6pole approach gives best results for a given "problem".

Misalignments in boat setup have much (!!!) more impact than the efficiency differences of the motors.

A specific risks of some BLs is broken rotors (Lehner - and other manufacturers - has/have had too thin shafts for the long motor versions ==> resonant effects on the shaft blew up the rotors).

The magnets have to be secured against blow-up by centrifugal forces
- some carbon or kevlar rovings around (Leopard and others, AFAIK also Neu)
- using dovetail guides (tenshock, no final protection against blow-up)
- using stainless steel shells (Lehner, additional eddy current losses!)

Jo-nny

19.February.2014, 14:14

Hello,

Ok, i get it.

My post was not an ascertainment of the facts, just a question if my mind is right.

As i said above, sorry for my bad grammar...

cohesive

19.February.2014, 20:18

Hello Cohesive,

apropos of nothing: whats your real name?

to your question: Lehner and NEU Motors are much more efficient because of their higher power density in contrast to the Tenshock.
The LMT´s have got a lot more precision- and mechanical strength of rotation Speed than the TS.

For the SAW-using i advise NEU or LMT.

by the way, the LMT´s have a very fine rotation Speed gradiation. Thats hugely usefull for plan an SAW-Boat.

I hope i was able to help.

Greetings from germany
Johannes

PS: sorry for my bad English grammar :rolleyes:

My name is Hubert .One reason I came here is for a different perspective. I dont want to look at the world only through American eyes. I sincerely hope I am welcomed here. I see it as a great oppertunity to broaden my thinking and learning.

CH Lucas is a fellow modeler whom I ask questions of from time to time. Camille told me I could find him here. I also sold benny a PTss45 boat.

Mein Name ist Hubert.Ein Grund, warum ich hierher gekommen ist, um einen anderen Blickwinkel. Ich will die Welt nur aus amerikanischer Sicht betrachten. Ich hoffe aufrichtig, dass ich hier willkommen bin. Ich sehe es als eine große Chance, kann mein Denken und lernen.

CH-Lucas ist ein Kollegen Modellierer, denen ich von Zeit zu Zeit Fragen zu stellen. Camille sagte mir, dass ich ihn hier finden könnte. Ich habe auch Benny ein PTss45 Boot verkauft.

Über die Tenshock mit 6-polig. Gibt es eine Chance, die sie entwickelt mehr Drehmoment? Welche Controller zeigen Erfolg damit @ 50 k +?

Zwischen der Lehner und Neu die beste Rohstoffe für den Bau verwendet?

In der Lehner Motoren ist die Baureihe Neu 1527 ungefähr gleich?

About the tenshock having 6 poles. Is there a chance it develops more torque? What controller show success with it @ 50k+?
Between the Lehner and Neu which uses the best raw materials for construction?
In the Lehner line of motors which is approximately equal to the 1527 Neu series?

cohesive

19.February.2014, 20:32

I understand and agree with your post about the importance of setup. The escs I will be using are castle hydra ice hv's v2.

Are there any other record setting performers that I should consider? Of the SAW records held in Germany which motor prevails???

Ich verstehe und Stimme mit Ihrem Beitrag über die Bedeutung des Setups. Die WSA ich verwenden werden sind Schloss Hydra Ice Hv v2.

Gibt es andere Rekord Einstellung-Künstler, die ich beachten sollte? Die SAW-Datensätze, die in Deutschland gehalten, welcher Motor sich durchsetzt???

Danke,
Hubert

MiSt

20.February.2014, 09:34

I understand and agree with your post about the importance of setup. The escs I will be using are castle hydra ice hv's v2.

Are there any other record setting performers that I should consider? Of the SAW records held in Germany which motor prevails???

Considered you really understood and agreed, why then the question :confused:?

When someone with avarage level of experience in setting up boats uses Motor X, he will be faster than a newbie using the same Motor X. Also there will be some guys who are actually faster with Motor X. And they will be still faster, even if you are going to use a "prevailing" Motor Y unless you learn to set up your boat better than the best.

What regards torque vs. pole number:

Any motor having the same specific rpms per Volt [rpm/V] has the same torque per Amp [Nm/A], regardless of the number of poles, regardless of its size or weight. This is an outcome of fundamental physics: Energy is always just converted from one style to another, but the amount is maintained (here electrical to mechanical + thermal)
The absolute amount of torque ([Nm], so not divided by Amps) is therefore determined by nothing but the flow of current, which is finally limited by the various resistors involved (motor, accu, controller, cables, connectors)
constructions with more or less poles have their specific benefits anyhow, to understand it is helpful to look on the extremes:
a 2pole motor puts the smallest stress on the controller, is therefore best choice for extreme rpms, because the controller is working with maximum timing precision possible. But to achieve low specific rpms/V to drive air propellers it has to use plenty of windings and will get a big internal resistance, so this application is unusual or in fact nonsense
a 10-14pole motor (invented by Ch. Lucas, btw.), as it is widely used to drive air propellers on planes, has a much lower internal resistance than a 2pole of same weight at low rpms/V. So it is capable of higher currents (==> more torque) at high efficiency. On the other hand it will put extreme stress on a controller at high rpms as needed in boats
the 4-6(8) pole motors available from Neu or Tenshock proved to be a very good choice in raceboats, in fact mostly the better one over 2pole, at least for oval racing. Their advantage in this application is the lower internal resistance at given rpm/V and weight, which gives you more "punch" (torque) when accelerating (on cost of more current!!)
for SAW you have to compare carefully, because the usually higher rpm-level may bring back the advantage to 2pole motors. Still the tiny differences on this (Neu, Lehner, Tenshock) level of quality will be camouflaged by even the smallest mistake in setup or driving.
BTW: My nick is composed of my extended initials, what is common practice to generate user names in IT systems. It has a strange meaning in German as well as in English, but I have to deal with it all day long in my job. So as kind of self-irony I use it in forums as well, but I like to get it written correctly "MiSt" (in fact I think all users like their nicks to be written correctly ...), or just call me Michael as written in my signature.

Ch.Lucas

20.February.2014, 19:31

Hi Budy,
as you see you are in best hands.MiSt ,Michaels answers give you all you need to know.btw. i am not the inventor of the 10 and 14 pole motor system the true inventor was Zielinski and Schoepp from Poland, http://www.aerodesign.de/peter/2001/LRK350/Paper_from%20_Wroclaw.html ,this is the translated paper i gave to Peter Rother if you want to compere some motors with the same stator dia ,lengh and number of slots you can simple multiplicate kv X number of turns per phase . The motor with the lowest result will be the winner as it has the best designed magnetic circuit.i have done it a time ago with some outrunner motors ,here an example plate.

Typ kv wdg ~1/Fluss Fluss relativ
Torcster N5065/6: 394 x 12 = 4728 89%
Hacker A50-16L: 270 x 16 = 4320 97%
Conrad BO 4570-10: 430 x 10 = 4300 98%
Hacker A50-12L: 350 x 12 = 4200 100% -arbitrarily set to 100%
Hacker A50-14L: 300 x 14 = 4200 100%
Hyperion Z4035-12: 345 x 12 = 4140 101%
Conrad BO 4570-10/2: 400 x 10 = 4000 105%
Hyperion ZS4035-10: 354 x 10 = 3540 119%

You see the Hyperion (Scorpion) motor is the winner with the best magnetic circuit .
but there is as well a winner the cheap Conrad motor best price to quality.

For SAW have always in mind that every motor can handle much moore load if the cooling is well designed. Ad a watercoolingjacket or a powerfull airblower or let some compressed gas expand inside the coils .
Of late i test a outrunner ,same motor size and weight, one for direct drive up to 80000 rpm and one with a epicyclic gear rev up 1:4 and one rev direct with 30000 rpm for high pitch prop. Here the best is the gear up system with the fastes accleration time .
The 2 pole inrunner with slotless ,airgap winding will reach the highest efficancy as the magnetic flux is less and the copperfill is the highest and the magnetic related loss in the coils can be low with multistrand wire.
Today the gap between Lehner and Neu is very close. Other parts in the driveline are moore important and it's easy to make mistakes,like running deep and angle of attace of the propeller and the blade shape .

sofus97

21.February.2014, 08:35

hey Hubert

I am Brian from Denmark

I'm not too familiar with all the theoretical, but more Practical experience.
But I can only give the gentleman right, Neu motors are best for torque at low rpm and Lehneren at high.
Has sailed both types are both super motors, Tenshock can not keep up when it comes to large motors.
I would think that a Lehner 2260 is power-wise as a Neu 1527

In Germany, all SAW sailors run with Lehner and it is also trend in the United States I think.

Have a Nice day

Brian

Robert

21.February.2014, 09:16

MiSt

21.February.2014, 10:02

Hello guys,

from also a more practical point of view, i love to have the option to switch between star and triangle circuit. You see it in the image. Because of that i can make an easy going test run setup with the same engine and lower RPM, get the setup and stability of the boat working in the right manner, and than...switch into the high RPM mode. I think that can save a lot of money at the beginning and all is in one engine available.

Cheers
Robert

Even more practically it is no practical problem to convert any BL from star to triangle or vice versa (the latter is more more common with the average BL sold ...). You just need some practice to do so ... the second or third time it becomes increasingly easy.

On the other hand the leap in rpms by a factor of 1,73 (well, in awkward theory it is SQR(3) ...) is usually not really possible to handle with the <same> setup (theoretically and practically ...).

cohesive

22.February.2014, 16:31

What bldc controllers are most successful with the out runners? I also have the hardware here to build a rohbust bldc controller based around a dsPIC30F2010 a 16 bit MICROCHIP dsp mcu. Im considering other commutation options instead of the typical zero cross found in hobby controllers . Cant I turn a larger or higher piched prop with more torque from the outrunner and still have a winner?My target would be 35-45k rpm. I have considered rewinds with better materials .I have two 58X49 8 turn 8 magnet 12 stator tooth 1400 kv outrunners.I did not contemplate any particular wind sequence. I have two x455 custom ground to 52 mm propellors .@ 8s I would want to be able to pull 180 amperes continuosly out of the motors.

your time and patience is greatly appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szgVUfyX8JM#t=1114

Hubert

cohesive

23.February.2014, 22:55

68016 68015 Daniel Sny of go brushless.com(micro dan) the maker of the velocity edf outrunner pictured here, is only 70 km from me. He could supply better raw materials and rewind wind the motors for me.
http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=magnet+wire+std

Here is the dsPIC30F2010 and PIC16F877 development boards and some of the components selected for the BL controllers
680136801468012

Funny about the BL controllers and difficult to drive high pole outrunners. The velocity is 4200kv
winding is 8 turns per tooth 22AWG ABC terminated delta
Stator Poles: 12
Magnet Poles: 8

I am running it in a 16th scale hydroplane (61cm) on 3 s lipo 46,620 rpm(no load) with a cheap 25 dollar chinese esc . Timing set to auto with no issue.......

cohesive

23.February.2014, 23:35

Robot that I will use for production of the pcb's

68018

Many methodical steps between an "idea" and something real...

Christian,
Also I subscribe to the motor construction and diy electronics threads on rc groups.com and would like to try some of these different winds and commutation algorithms on these inrunners and some custom outrunners.

Hubert

Ch.Lucas

25.February.2014, 20:56

Hi Hugh,

for SAW you can use the option of weaken the magnetic force in the motor by rising the timing over 30 degree. The problem is that the sensorless controller can not go over 30 degree without risk of losing the comutation .Here the sensor controller will be the better system as you can run a motor with lower kv and higher torque that will easy turn a high pitched and bigger dia propeller. Only on the straight when the motor reach a set rpm the controller can swich in the weaken mode and rise the motor rpm . It's better to go this way to rise the timing than to go with a high rev motor and let it run in partload condition with the esc. The running time under part load will benmuch longer than the runningtime under full load condition .
By the way ,i am thinking about a additional high current flywheel with counter rotating flywheels. They give the option to run with a lower max power batterie as the acclerating power will served by the flywheel . But the main idea is to use the gyro system to control roll or turn movment of the boat by switching between the rotating mass .Belong to the flywheel you can force the boat in usfull direction by flywheel breaking and acclerating .Some student at the ETH Zürich have create a cube with flywheelsystem that can move and hold any position you want by acclerating and breaking the flywheels. They don't use the gyroforce like helicopters do.

regards Christian

cohesive

2.March.2014, 23:25

Christian, here are the 8 turn delta 1400 kv outrunners I want to rewind. After removing the large c clip I still cannot remove the stator. Is it glued on? Can I remove it?

Christian hier sind die 8 turn Delta 1400 kv Outrunners möchte ich zurückspulen. Ich will wenigstens 1800kv. Nach dem Entfernen des großen C-Clips kann nicht den Stator noch entfernt werden. Ist es auf geklebt? Kann ich es entfernen

Hubert

Ch.Lucas

3.March.2014, 22:36

Hi,
Yes you have to remove it.Use deep coold and a hammer and a plasitik part that match the inside dia of the stator to bump it out. 12slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phas design better for high powerdensity is a 12 slot 10 pole design and the right stator plates cut out . Best here are the Scorpion HK serie motors. You know this video of the modelhelicopters lifting the lady , http://youtu.be/77uK19KxMuI . Each motor can do 10 KW and each heli can easy lift 30 kg .

Ralf Moser

4.March.2014, 17:25

Even more practically it is no practical problem to convert any BL from star to triangle or vice versa (the latter is more more common with the average BL sold ...). You just need some practice to do so ... the second or third time it becomes increasingly easy.

On the other hand the leap in rpms by a factor of 1,73 (well, in awkward theory it is SQR(3) ...) is usually not really possible to handle with the <same> setup (theoretically and practically ...).

Switching is one of the best options having in a BL if you live in both worlds, Powerboat and SAW. Practically no one owns only one boat.

I have a NEU2215/1Y layin around (and not spliceable by myself for switching if i am right). Where would you like to use this motor in Powerboat when you are only able to use 6S for fun-rpm? It is basically too big for a 6S-hull and 6S is not enough for a 10S-hull. Sure, you can rape it with 6S2P.
In smaller Boats you do not need a NEU, a cheaper motor is doing fine.

Having a 3040/7 is way more smarter, in star configuration you can use it everywhere. And with that it is easier to sell a motor.
Selling a hot SAW-Motor without switching-option (for a reasonable price) is nearly unpossible if it is a big motor.

Also for the smaller ones like the 22 series i would choose the switching option if i have a high-rpm-high-current-application for the main app. But have the option use this motor in Y for other toys where you are not in need of 300A+.

With that strategy the cost-effectiveness of a lehner rises and ends up in being cheaper than a NEU or Pletti.

Regards

MiSt

4.March.2014, 19:26

I have a NEU2215/1Y layin around (and not spliceable by myself for switching if i am right).

Indeed a conversion of a factory configured motor with Y winds is somehow more difficult compared to converting a delta-wound to Y, because you have to open the housing, find the central node and seperate the wires (which is in turn easier than seperating the windings of delta wound motors, because one end of the coil is already open, whereas absolutely ALL wires have to be seperated from each other when converting delta ==> Y)

Ralf Moser

4.March.2014, 19:42

Yep, you are right.
But will not help anyway since it opens only the delta option (1440/V times 1.73).
Since this motor is only safe for 40k it sucks now even more:laugh:

cohesive

4.March.2014, 20:22

May I throw a new player in the game?

The tp 4060 boast 6200 watts while a Neu 1527 specs 4500. The tp is lighter and much cheaper??????

How does this play out??? efficiency is important but is it negligable when the overall hp is more and the weight is less when comparing a 90 percent versus say 95 percent? I dont buy any 100 plus efficiency numbers.There has to be some loss. It may be very minimal.

MiSt

4.March.2014, 20:59

How does this play out???

A german idiom - literally translated - tells "paper is patient".

More technically/seriously: A horsepower spec. for an electric motor is pure bullshit without specifying the environmental conditions (tolerable rise of temperature and expected lifetime, especially). All DC motors know a specific operating point in their diagrams called "maximum output power". In this situation the losses equal the output power, so this is of no practical interest. The current is then roundabout half of the blocking current, so this theoretical maximum power is strongly depending on the supply voltage and the resistances involved (Motor, Controller, Wiring).

In any real application, including even SAW with boats (!!), an electric motor is operated somehow between the points of maximum efficiency and maximum power.

cohesive

5.March.2014, 12:31

indeed a conversion of a factory configured motor with y winds is somehow more difficult compared to converting a delta-wound to y, because you have to open the housing, find the central node and seperate the wires (which is in turn easier than seperating the windings of delta wound motors, because one end of the coil is already open, whereas absolutely all wires have to be seperated from each other when converting delta ==> y)

"Hi,
Yes you have to remove it.Use deep coold and a hammer and a plasitik part that match the inside dia of the stator to bump it out. 12slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phas design better for high powerdensity is a 12 slot 10 pole design and the right stator plates cut out . Best here are the Scorpion HK serie motors. You know this video of the modelhelicopters lifting the lady , http://youtu.be/77uK19KxMuI (http://youtu.be/77uK19KxMuI) . Each motor can do 10 KW and each heli can easy lift 30 kg ."

HKIII 4035
68266
How about 3 or less turns at a minimum of 24 volts?

Ch.Lucas

5.March.2014, 20:14

cohesive

5.March.2014, 21:05

Hi Hugh,
the 4035 is a real powerhouse. A shorter 4025 ,12N10P ,and 4x(2x1,18)YY i have does on 10S 3300 SLS Lipo surge 230 Amps with a airplanepropeller 7,5x12,5 .That are 7,2 kw close to 10 horses .So the 4035 can do moore .For an example i show you the stator wound with 6+5 turn 1,6 dia wire for Airplane see pic .This motor has only 514 kv so on 43,5 Volt it turns about 22350 rpm ,free amp 4,6 A .With this wire the motor can eat 180-200 A on 10S . This powerexamples are for 10 second burst maybe moore belong to the cooling.

Thanks for the reply Christian.

I want at least 1400 kv . Im running between 6 an 8s lipo. please explain the staggered wind sequence of 5+6. If Im winding it myself I may want to stay away from sophisticated wind sequences on a first try maybe not.What is your suggestion?

Thanks,
Hubert

Ch.Lucas

6.March.2014, 19:58

cohesive

7.March.2014, 02:18

Hi Hugh,
You need some tools.
First the windingcalculator: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21618814&postcount=266 .
Second the how to wind: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27427928&postcount=16 , download and run .

At rcgroups Jack will help you .
For 1400 kv you have to wind 2 turn on each statorarm so 4 turn per phase on one half of the stator. Then you have to wind the same 4 wind on the other side of the stator and connect this in parallel to the other side.

With the second tool you can get a pic of the windings. YY mean that every half of the stator is wound like a seperate full working motor and after both side are ready they are conected parallel.first pic of one half stator already wound .This can run.
And don't run the motor unload (over 65000 rpm) as the backiron of the scorpion bell with the magnets is softer iron as it can hold moore magnetic flux.This iron is very soft and at high speed the forc of the magnets will bend the bell,see pic. If you want higher rpm you have to wire a bell of cfk around the ironbell and the ironbell has to be cut in small polesections.

By the way i post here the pic of Andys new propellers you like to see.

Thank you. You are too kind. What type of controller, pwm frequency, and timing are you running with this wind/poles? Have you done any work with an FOC style commutation sequence in the bldc controller? The application example Ive decided to work with, has a physical topology using low resistance shunts and opamps to look at the currents on A B C. Id like to send you some notes and examples to review.

I recieved email from you, but could not return a response ???

Im also sorry if I did not pay close attention to your post, but what diameter magnet wire are you showing here, and what is its temp rating?

Hubert

Ch.Lucas

7.March.2014, 08:34

Hi,
The 4x(2x1,18) is AWG 17 or singel AWG 11 .so you want double kv than wind 2x(4xAWG17) .with this wire it is better to worke with multistrandwire AWG 11 is not easy to wind as it's a strong rod.
To use thicker wire will cause higher eddycurrent in them and other amp related loss like proximity effekt for close high current wire.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Wire_Gauge .

cohesive

7.March.2014, 21:38

Hi,
The 4x(2x1,18) is AWG 17 or singel AWG 11 .so you want double kv than wind 2x(4xAWG17) .with this wire it is better to eworke with multistrandwire AWG 11 is not easy to wind as it's a strong rod.
To use thicker wire will cause higher eddycurrent in them and other amp related loss like proximity effekt for close high current wire.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Wire_Gauge .

Good day gentlemen,
Christian
Is this the diagram for the Y half parallel winding scheme? No interest in 4 phase delta or 6 phase operation? Or just no controllers to test them......
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=68361&d=1394272924

cohesive

8.March.2014, 00:40

68357
Christian,
Getting the wire off this stator was more than fun! Epoxy was on the wires making it difficult to remove from the stator. I did try to be gentle as I know you want to keep the insulating epoxy in place. It still chipped in a few places around the stator. How should I prep this for winding. I looked at the LRK wind and find it straight foward.Im Still trying to understand the YY.

Hubert.

cohesive

8.March.2014, 01:51

Hello guys,

from also a more practical point of view, I love to have the option to switch between star and triangle circuit. You see it in the image. Because of that I can make an easy going test run setup with the same engine and lower RPM, get the setup and stability of the boat working in the right manner, and than...switch into the high RPM mode. I think that can save a lot of money at the beginning and all is in one engine available.

Cheers
Robert

Robert, It seems the outrunner could possibly be wound for polyphase operation.

Ch.Lucas

8.March.2014, 21:15

cohesive

9.March.2014, 03:06

Hello Hugh,
sorry for my late response ,was skiing thursday and friday with my children and we have less snow in the alpes totaly different to the Stsates this year.
The yellow pic show YY system .It´s possible to drive each side with a seperate esc but you can switch them parallel on on esc.
The 12slot 10 pol and 14 pol system is a six phase system that can be driven by using the SPS (LRK) wireing with an 3 phase controler that switch double frequenz.

Best way is to go six phase with a six phase controler but there is no controler on the market. Some have test to wire two SPS winding systems like you see in the second pic. SPS start on statorarm 1 and goes to 3 and so every second arm.This motor has to conect to the first controler .Than start a second SPS motor starting from statorarm 2 and goes to 4 and so on to every second arm like befor. This second motor conect to a second esc . So now the motor has also two controler that drive with 30 degree offset like a realy sixphase motor. But note that the sensorless modelmotor esc have somtimes problems switching a singl SPS winding system and with the twin SPS system it can be a goal or the full disaster,burning the hole equipment.

Robert mean not different phase system he say that the delta to Y switching possibility is a great goal as you will have two motors in one .Lehner has this build in his motors . This is possible to do with every 3 phase motor.

Thank you for the diagram Christian, It seems a full wave 4 phase delta wind would be a good configuration for more power over a given 3 phase bldc design . If you follow the current you will see that all 4 coils are utilized in all 4 switch positions and it wouldnt need as elaborate controller as six phase . I dont know if the hobby market would be willing to pay for such nice toys.

A lab dedicated bldc motor driver is needed to analyze the many different styles and gross outputs of the different wind configurations.

The KT must be referenced to a given winding and switching pattern.What is this insulating fabric you have in the slot while you wind?

TYIA,
Hubert,

Ch.Lucas

9.March.2014, 08:03

Hi,
best isulation with Kapton ,Nomex and Polyester .
4 Phase is ok .If you can design your owen controler wy not making a modular magnet motor like 15 Slot 16 pole . Singel controler for each statorarm and you can do like a kit to switch to every motorsize you like ?

cohesive

9.March.2014, 14:24

Hi,
best isulation with Kapton ,Nomex and Polyester .
4 Phase is ok .If you can design your own controler wy not making a modular magnet motor like 15 Slot 16 pole . Singel controler for each statorarm and you can do like a kit to switch to every motorsize you like ?
Hello Christian ,even though I was curious about the kapton tape, I found nomex 410 paper. Thank you.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQwMFgxNjAw/z/gYgAAOxycmBSsJho/$_57.JPG

Have you run any test on bearings? Im also considering what bearings would be best for this type of thing. An ABEC 7 hybrid ceramic is preferred in my mind, but at what radial clearance, considering thermal expansion.? The likely hood of receiving a sub par bearing in a hobby motor is high,even scorpion. I learned this from Daniel who upgrades the scorpions for long work duty in military UAVS. The bearings are one of the things addressed in the upgrades. I never talked to him about bearing for a racing boat motor but figure the drones dont need nearly as much rpm for operation and likely run cooler in typical operation.

I will consider different phase options as I contemplate the controller - alot of work.

Thanks again

Hubert

Ch.Lucas

10.March.2014, 05:23

Hi,
i use bearing from SKF . Ceramic bearing are better if you like. I make the shaft sliding in the bearing and fasten one ,the bearing inside the motor with screw secure glue somit will not slide .Allway one secure one free so rising heat will not destroy the bearing. Nomex paper is ok .Kapton plastik sheet or tape ,the tapeglue help during work .

cohesive

12.March.2014, 03:58

68512Christian, If an eight pole 6 stator arm is more desirable than a 8 pole 12 stator.
Couldnt you wind just 2 - 6 arms then parallel them ? Seems this would allow you to use all 12 arms but maintain the better 8 pole 6 arm magnetic geometry? Maybe this you tried to explain. Im a bit ignorant to winding a motor. Your time and patience is greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Hubert

Ch.Lucas

12.March.2014, 15:31

Hi Hugh,

No the 6 slot 8 pole is not desirable. 12 slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phase motordesign, like 3 slot 2 pole ,6s4p,9s6p and 12s8p and so on . Most esc have less problems with that combination and it's a easy wind doing abcabc/abcabc and conect this two seperate wind parallel.

cohesive

12.March.2014, 16:31

Christian,

Please look here http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.za/a-BM-motors-3.html

It says the 8 pole 12 stator ABCABC works but not well it says a 8 pole 6 is a better configuration like a 10 pole 12arm config. For a 9 arm it suggest AaABbBCcC. Is this chart incorrect? Do you have one that is better?

Hubert

Ch.Lucas

12.March.2014, 20:55

cohesive

14.March.2014, 15:29

Don't look at this plate it is not right. Look at the windingconfigurator ,there you will find the windingfactor . It tells you how much of the winding is involved producing torque . Closer to 1 is better .you will see that 12slot8pole has about 0,8330.. Is very good only 12slot10 and 14 pole have 0,93... . 9slot 8pole has 0,945... Best of,but every phase 120 degree orientated so the rotorbell will bend hard to one side. Thats bad.
As you are a electronic guru you can find some little plus if you build a esc that has 3 two phase controler that switch not only 3 phase 120 degree you can switch every phase with 180 degree if you feed every phase seperate.

No guru here although I think a dedicated controller could be built around your wind styles. I plan to stay in touch with u all as long as you allow.If I was a guru it would be HRK not LRK. You guys are the gurus here no doubt. Nevertheless Id hope you and Micheal would take a serious look at the TI INSTASPIN commutation link I posted. Field Oriented Commutation is what I want to try. Christian ill be CNC certified in july maybe we need to talk about the ideal outrunner can and build it.

HAHA see without broadening my horizons I would have been stuck with the incorrect information on this AMERICAN link.This is the very reason I came here to talk to you guys. Alot of incorrect shit gets passed along over here........in the states. I wonder do these guys even know you as they incorrectly post your information? UNREAL!

What radial clearance and ABEC ratings are the snk's you use? When I used to skateboard, bearings that just read "GERMANY" on the shields were the smoothest free rolling bearing we could get. I always wondered the companies name who made them???

Im sure you,Micheal, and the guys know about these but just in case.......
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l140/m/mrRz70npEoT-qXhXsZ1upMQ.jpg
Low ESR 1 FARAD supercaps. Wire 8 of these in series and have a low profile 1 farad cap bank for 10s. I will definately be testing these as soon as they arrive in the mail.

Hubert

MiSt

14.March.2014, 16:26

"Low ESR" has a little bit of a different meaning here, compared to the one in the world of aluminium electrolytics :cool:

http://industrial.panasonic.com/jp/i/29880/TGC_E/TGC_E.pdf page 15/17 "Maximum operating (discharge) Current"

cohesive

14.March.2014, 17:47

cohesive

21.March.2014, 14:59

68696
Hi Hugh,

No the 6 slot 8 pole is not desirable. 12 slot 8 pole is a basic 3 phase motordesign, like 3 slot 2 pole ,6s4p,9s6p and 12s8p and so on . Most esc have less problems with that combination and it's a easy wind doing abcabc/abcabc and conect this two seperate wind parallel.

Good evening Christian

is this the correct parallel scheme for 8 pole 12 arm configuration?

Thanks
Hubert

cohesive

21.March.2014, 15:05

Thank you Micheal:)

Micheal, have you had the time to look at the performance of lithium based supercaps versus aluminium electrolytics ? A bit off topic I know.
68779

MiSt

25.March.2014, 07:24

Ch.Lucas

25.March.2014, 11:23

Hi Hugh,
yes it´s right . You have only to switch the start ABC togethter . The end ABC have only be switched together on each side seperate . Hope you understand ,otherwise i will draw it.

cohesive

25.March.2014, 17:06

Well ... the ESR of the lithium supercaps is as well not really impressive compared to the one of aluminium (especially dedicated low-ESR) electrolytic capacitors, and is quite high compared to LiPos themselves. If you form 1F of ALs, you get Microohms due to the paralleling ...

... even worse one needs to put two of them in series per cell, because of the 2,7V rating, even doubling the ESR then.

http://www.tecategroup.com/capacitors/datasheets/powerburst/TPLS.pdf

In the car-HIFI area, people use huge ALs of 1F to lower the burst impedance of the car's battery. But they are bigger and heavier :rolleyes:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/like/271296426788?lpid=106&_configDebug=ViewItemDictionary.ENABLE_PAYMENTS_IN _HLP:true&hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1

I think I would accept the tradeoff; you cant have it all .......No need for me to look at links to Hifi audio electrolytics, after 25 years of hifi car stereo experience (M.E.C.P.master certified installer). Do you think the idea of a big azz car stereo 1 farad 16 volt cap, the size of a beer can, is at all practical for rc boats? in my opinion it isnt. Nor is the parallelling of 3,030 330uf AL electrolytics capacitors (what schulze uses) versus 18 of the supercaps @ 50 volts respectively, simply for a lower ESR.

Micheal,
I realize the ESR, or dissipation factor, is inversely related to the quality factor or Q of the capacitor but.... is 3000 of them practical for 1 farad of capacitance In an rc boat built for SAW?

688273030 of these in a parallel configuration sounds like a winner http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/rolleyes.gif.............

Happy Boating
Hubert

cohesive

26.March.2014, 19:25

"
Supercapacitors have been around for years, but were initially very low current devices such as the Panasonic gold cap, with high ESR, suitable for RTC and memory backup. The breakthrough in the last 10 years or so has to be reduce the ESR so supercapacitors can deliver high power."

link http://www.energyharvestingjournal.com/articles/using-a-supercapacitor-to-manage-your-power-00001921.asp?sessionid=1

MiSt

28.March.2014, 08:33

The hint on Car-HiFi was pure irony.

Super-Caps have improved a lot, but are powers of ten worse than optimized ALs concerning ESR. ESR stands for equivalent series resistance and marks the lowest achieveable impedance of the device: The pure ohmic one remaining after the capacitive part reached "zero". Another important parameter - in fact the most important - is the tolerable ripple current. If this value is low compared to the real ripple current during partial throttle cruising, the capacitors are blown sooner or later.

Plenty of capacitance on controller supply lines is mainy required during reduced throttle operation. This is no typical SAW (full throttle) way of operation - isn't it? Anyway it is best practice (not all developers of electronics worldwide are complete idoiots ...) to parallel several AL-electrolytics with optimized low-ESR/high ripple current characteristics. The temperature rating - by the way - is irrelevant in those matters, but typically you will not get the top-of-the-pops with only a 85°C rating, because this makes no commercial sense for the manufacturers.

The picture you published in post 50 is showing a good way of connecting/soldering those capacitors, because you need to keep their wiring short (otherwise you get undesired inductances from the wire lengths). Therefore some of the capacitor-banks sold are pure bullshit when connected via long cables, with wire gauge being less important compared to length. It is much better to do it like pictured, and this way it is in principle also recommended by Schulze when adding additional capacitance.

To lower inductance of supply itself and save capacitors, it is recommended to keep the supply wiring as short as possible and use 2-3 parallel cables instead of a single thick one, for example 2x 1,5mm² + x 1mm² perform much better than 4mm², although same amount of copper, because at same length they have only 1/3 of inductance.

cohesive

28.March.2014, 20:39

"Plenty of capacitance on controller supply lines is mainy required during reduced throttle operation. This is no typical SAW (full throttle) way of operation - isn't it? Anyway it is best practice (not all developers of electronics worldwide are complete idoiots ...) to parallel several AL-electrolytics with optimized low-ESR/higripple current characteristics. The temperature rating - by the way - is irrelevarnt in those matters, but typically you will not get the top-of-the-pops with only a 85°C rating, because this makes no commercial sense for the manufacturers."

ESR stands for equivalent resistance - It continues to lower in development of the super caps.

Yes the esc struggles less @ wot but it has to get there and amperage punch added on the low end will facilitate hole shot acceleration, leaving more time for top end at the traps. Plus they help protect the precious BLDC controller most important $$$$. If the caps are balanced voltage and charge protected they will last vitrtually forever. If the caps get up to 185 degrees F - too hot to touch the problem causing it wont be solved be a 105c rated one. The caps will deliver at the peaks of amp draw - whatever the source or cause in normal operation isnt of any concern.The overall series resistance will lower by using the appropriately selected balancing circuitry fastened individually on each on each cap.

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=68873&d=1396039151

Sika

28.March.2014, 22:50

cohesive

28.March.2014, 23:48

Beware the fisherman, who is casting out his line into a dried up river bed.
Don't try to tell him, 'cos he won't believe you.
Throw some bread to the ducks instead, it's easier that way
(Tony Banks from Genesis)

Excuse me "Sika" , you didnt introduce yourself, If you think that all meaningful conversation about super capacitors, there application,or effectiveness, stops with what Micheal says I have to ask why are you talking?There are new developments in this capacitor technology that are the buzz in Electrical Engineers ears. Are you one? While I respect and and welcome Micheals input - as I asked for it, your references to a british keyboarder accomplish what? If youve something useful to add add it but be mindful that this isnt a discussion about a grammy ,keyboardist or a dry riverbed. I appreciate meaningful input without ad hominem or bullshit.

Danke,
Hubert

MiSt

29.March.2014, 07:31

Beware the fisherman, who is casting out his line into a dried up river bed.
Don't try to tell him, 'cos he won't believe you.
Throw some bread to the ducks instead, it's easier that way
(Tony Banks from Genesis)

It's out of a beautiful song (Heathaze) from Album "Duke" of my favourite Band, and this part of the lyrics is my signature here since years ... :cool:

cohesive

29.March.2014, 09:40

It's out of a beautiful song (Heathaze) from Album "Duke" of my favourite Band, and this part of the lyrics is my signature here since years ... :cool:

Oh hes reciting your signature maybe a kiss is in order:laugh: anyways you can get the caps in milliohms now or just run a series parallel configuration.

Sika

29.March.2014, 12:59

The super caps mentioned are 5,5V max. and 50mOhm each. To be safe for 63V you need to put 12 in series, which gives about 600 mOhm.

Good 5000mAh LiPo cells got a Ri or impedance of about 1mOhm when warm, thus a 10s1p pack has 10 mOhms.

Rubicon ZLH 63V 470uF got an impedance of 43 mOhm each, 10 in parallel and you are at about 4.3 mOhm.

Adding a 4.3 mOhm caps buffer very close to the FETs helps to buffer voltage spikes against the 10 mOhms of the battery pack - to which the Ri/ESR of cables and connectors needs to be added.

Putting a block of 600 mOhm super caps anywhere in there is completely useless.

This is what Michael was trying to say for several posts - so I was reminding him of his signature... quak, quak, quak,...

Joerg

cohesive

29.March.2014, 15:52

68878
Thats nice It makes me wonder how 5 d-sized 300 farad maxwells can start an automobile. I guess they do that as well as the things mentioned about supercaps below supplying current in the milli amps?

Low amperage ideas:http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/dry.gif

"Supercapacitors or UltraCapacitors were initially used by the US military to start the engines of tanks and submarines. Most applications now are in small appliances, handheld electronics and hybrid electric vehicles.

NASA has a research project to use supercapacitors in an electric bus called the Hybrid Electric Transit Bus. The energy used to start the engine and accelerate the bus is regenerated from braking. During test runs, a bus loaded with 30 supercapacitors, each of them weighing 32 kg and releasing energy of 50 kJ at 200 V managed to run for four miles.

GM Super CapacitorIn most hybrid vehicles, 42 V super capacitors are used. General Motors has developed a pickup truck with a V8 engine that uses the supercapacitor / ultra capacitor to replace the battery. The efficiency of the engine rose by 14%. The supercapacitor supplies energy to the alternator. Toyota has developed a diesel engine using the same technology and it is claimed to use just 2.7 liters of fuel per 100 km."

http://supercapacitors.org/GM_Fuel_Cell_Stack.jpg

~ http://supercapacitors.org/ ~

68882 At far right a special lot of Low ESR 100 volts caps for my Ultra HV BLDC prototype. I know about AL electrolytics, but there has got to be a way or will be a way to utilize such wonderful capacitance in a compact form factor.

16 rows of 12 paralleled for (192) 37.5 mohms or 2,126 paralleled AL's at a much lower ESR. whats better? Considering all things. What would happen if I introduced ceramics on top of the supers? do you think the idea of 1 farad is simply overkill? In car stereo which you mentioned AL 1 farads are common in 1000 -1500 watt setups and the headlights still dim with 775 CCA batteries on the low frequency transients 1500 watts were running 10kw or more.
Whats that gonna do? :laugh:

cohesive

29.March.2014, 19:50

68884

I do 4 stacks of this for 37.5 mohms and so on.......

Sika

29.March.2014, 23:29

You use your super caps, I feed the ducks...

cohesive

30.March.2014, 00:12

You use your super caps, I feed the ducks...

You should enjoy that........
Quack!

cohesive

3.April.2014, 21:00

6906169060
Tried and true traditional 7500uf AL electrolytics cap banks I built .I piggy back with small ceramics across the leads.

but heres photos of a supercap amp that passes 70 ampereshttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/stirthepot.gif
69058
69059

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-forum/trolls.gif

..

cohesive

18.April.2014, 17:06

Good day all. Happy birthday Christian, . Here look at the components for the BLDC. You dream 6 phase controller in theory the bridge just adds 3 more high low channels with possibly additional current watchdogs using a shunt and op amps. Ir also just sent me a letter of a new 60 volt "strong fet". I havent had time to look at it yet.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT93aBlhJSBWp7Bj634Md1BisWrpZmaZ YvRDHuJ6wX3MT05X1IlA5D_zg (http://www.rc-raceboats.de/url?q=http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D10000%26page%3D43&sa=U&ei=UlBRU9feCJS0yAShpoDAAQ&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAzgU&usg=AFQjCNG1SKc0yv0MYPpgvny5E0dUizjCyw)
Happy boating
Hubert

69474

cohesive

6.May.2014, 07:44

Christian, one thing about materials that wasnt discussed on the other forum in the US was the magnetic properties and how some metals lose, change, or maintain their magnetic properties in heat treatment processes, I thought of this when Micheal made a comment about the stainless steel shells magnetic properties not being ideal and the 440C stainless, in the prop thread, that maintains its magnetism though all heat treatments. I do not know if this would be a good thing in that specific case, but I do wonder about the can of an outrunner and the ideal materials from which they should be made. You had one that lost its roundness due to high rpm, I remember the wire fix but wonder what materials would give you the ideal mechanical properties for high rpm but also exhibit excellent electrical properties? I would also like to know more about the SNK bearing you run.

Thank you for your time gentlemen
Hubert

cohesive

21.May.2014, 00:22

Greetings gentlemen. Looking at the TI insta spin video and reading a microchip app note, It seems that it is just a fancy name for Field oriented commutation.In a non - hall format this seemed to me to be the best style for what we do.Is there something better? In the end would it be in anyones opinion that if a high quality controller was to be built it have hall sensor capability?

I know that hacker had released airplane packaged "sinus drive" with motor and controller. I assume using a sinusoidal commutation on a pm motor? Could it be right? I dont know if the airplanes are different as far as demands, but it certainly seems a boats exerts varying load on an electric motor.

cohesive

22.October.2014, 00:39

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=544249&d=1413857474http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=544250&d=1413857474
My Turnigy T600 rework:

Originally 1400kv @ 8 turns delta of unknown small gauge multistrand

4030 stator with 5+6 STSD turns of 1.3mm Fosgate magnet wire.
Kapton and Nomex insulated.
3-100 k rpm capable ceramic hybrid bearings

for practice....

Hope to run ABCABC/ABCABC for parallel or six phase operation.

Remember...... http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69474&d=1393195687

Hubert

Hit 3,515

cohesive

23.October.2014, 11:28

http://666kb.com/i/c5g6bw8a8dgjk3m8n.gif

cohesive

19.November.2015, 10:55

Hi Christian, Micheal, Guys...

Just wanted to share where I am at with winding motors now.

Kontronics Pyro 800 6 + 6 YY 1.53162mm (15Ga.) mono wire Kv 485

Hubert

http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/uploads/post-4995-0-84934700-1447760415_thumb.jpg
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/uploads/post-4995-0-89205800-1447803066_thumb.jpg
http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=620097&d=1447853211
Generated BEMF @ 2,250 rpm

cohesive

21.November.2015, 13:37

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o609/hugh39/pyro%20800.jpg
Pyro 800 7 + 7 YY 15Ga. 420 Kv

Hubert

cohesive

21.November.2015, 18:23

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=82696&d=1448130116
I ordered some carbon fiber props to load motors and log the data.

Ch.Lucas

21.November.2015, 21:49

Hi Hugh,

be careful ,this motor can power yourself standing on a surfbord . Good job .

cohesive

21.November.2015, 23:26

Thanks Chris,
Safety will be in place.

Hubert

cohesive

22.November.2015, 04:28

82697
apc1708e ( 432mm X 203mm)

cohesive

25.November.2015, 05:30

Products came.

cohesive

26.November.2015, 03:14

Hi
http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/uploads/post-4995-0-58592200-1448506606_thumb.jpg

HK III 4035 two strands of 16 Ga.(1.35mm measured) 3 + 3 parallel wye ~ 990 Kv

cohesive

27.November.2015, 10:49

Termination for parallel wye. The two strand groups weren't too difficult to manage.

82785

Hubert

cohesive

28.November.2015, 14:43

8279882797

cohesive

28.November.2015, 19:56

http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/uploads/post-4995-0-94006900-1448742551_thumb.jpg

Free from the ESC I used the "drill method" and calculated a kv of a 1040 Using the oscilloscope and a electric hand drill rated at 2250rpm.
On the Castle Ice I logged an Io of 4.4 amp @ 22.5 volts the Kv was logged at approximately 1190. I take the Rm measurement using 4 wire method (http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/uploads/post-4995-0-94006900-1448742551_thumb.jpg). A 2250mah 3s lipo a 10 watt 20 ohm resistor and two DMM's. I will report back shortly.

Thanks
Hubert

cohesive

1.December.2015, 08:00

82865
I started a 7 turn LRK YY on a 40 x 30mm Turnigy T600 stator with 13 ga. (1.91516 mm) If it returns a good numbers I think the MKIII 4025 I have here will be wound similarly. Maybe it will suffer badly from skin effect and I wont.....

http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/coule.gif
Happy Boating
Hubert

cohesive

3.December.2015, 05:32

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=82907&d=1449120665
Scorpion 4035 HKIII
Kv 1190 on castle Ice HV v2
Io 4.4 amps @ 22.5 volts
Rm .008 ohms

cohesive

5.December.2015, 05:20

82915 82916
Hi Everyone,
The 4025 HKIII's original carrier with stator and copper coils weight was 170.8 grams. We are at 181.8 with 5 arms wound of LRK wind without the carrier which is 20 grams and still climbing. Should be interesting to see the final weight after trimming for final assembly. The 236.7 grams is the stock HK5020 weight with carrier stator and copper coils. What I am winding on the 4025 HKIII is 5 turns in 3 strands of 17 Ga.(1.22428 mm)

TTYS
Hugh

cohesive

12.December.2015, 01:20

8303683037

600 class 40mmx30mm stator 12N8P 6 turns LRK YY or DD 1.91516 mm. I could have easily put one more turn on for 7 turns for more fill. But I dont want the KV too low. If I terminate in DD then the Kv should be around 2300 in YY I'd expect around 1350. Im thinking later that a 7 turn in DD might be a very good wind for 6s lipo. I can wind the other t600 which is now a 4 turn YY for 2030 Kv.

cohesive

11.February.2016, 08:06

Photos of the T600 terminated and a load bank for a generator.

cohesive

12.February.2016, 20:06

Just wanted to share photos of the two T600 40x30's complete.

Thank You
Hubert

cohesive

20.February.2016, 20:22

Hi,

This is free sharing :)

IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON ENERGY CONVERSION,VOL.21,NO.1,MARCH 200695

Comparison of PM Brushless Motors,Having Either All Teeth or AlternateTeethWound

DahamanIshak,Z.Q.Zhu,SeniorMember,IEEE,and David Howe

One of the reference papers used in Gerling's findings...

It seems Dahamanlshak, Z.Q. Zhu and David Howe suggest through finite element predictions and real practice a few conclusive comparisons of DL and SL motor winds.

*SL's winds have more trapazoidal BEMF that DL's.
*SL's winds have more self and mutual inductance than DL's.
* SL's showed less cogging torque when driven by zero cross algorithms(BLDC) than DL's which would be lower if driven in BLAC.
*Static and output torque output is higher with SL's
*SL's have higher torque density.

And lastly not reported in this paper but should be noted SL's have more copper fill potential !

The BEMF measurements taken on an oscilloscope shown in figures 8,9, and 10 played a major role in the real time confirmation of theory in this Dajaku Gerling reference. Discrete proprietary sensors in and around the stator to measure magneto motor force are not essential for a hobby test bench to confirm harmonics or line thd produced by a FSCWM. Those methods will not capture all the harmonics. Neither will most SA's mostly designed for rf frequencies above 9.5k

Paraphrased conclusion:

The winding factor significantly effects the BEMF waveform as well as the self and mutual inductance's while the motors exhibit low cogging because of the fractional number of slots per pole.

This idea is further confirmed in figures 10, 11, and 12, of Gerling's

Eddy Current Loss Minimization in Rotor Magnets of PM Machines using
High-Efficiency 12-teeth/10-poles Winding Topology

Really amazing to see the significant differences in stator and magnet loss between the two configurations in fig. 11 and 12 that continues even with the overall reduction in the new stator core structures in fig. 8.....

Fig 3 may explain the 12n10p Gerling wind better for some than what has been offered thus far. I'm still trying to grasp it before an attempt with no copper to waste.

The SL and DL stator core structures are very also prototype worthy Id think.

cohesive

26.February.2016, 23:02

SL Scorpion HK 5020 YY 24 turns 1.23mm. Took a peep inside the factory bearings and want to test full compliment deep grove radial hybrids. Noticed these run grease which usually reduces the rpm rating. Seems like alternating teeth with flatter top is better for bldc commutation and maybe can be improved upon in efficiency and reduction of rotor and magnet loss with magnet segmenting, axial pole pairs, flux barriers, and multi stranding vs big mono wire. The beginning of a parallel slot 12 tooth stator. CL and other reputable sources report 70% fill with parallel slots. This is the beginnings of one of my prototype stators with slot and relevant dimensional numbers from Christian.

8434284343

cohesive

29.February.2016, 11:34

http://www.helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=637832&d=1456696886
Full compliment all ceramic bearings in a 19x10x5mm are upwards of $160.00 usd a pair. Maybe I'll ask for a working sample for test......

Without a single more manufacturing process that alone would literally double the price of this motor. Would it yield anything in efficiency if PO=torque*rpm. Suppose you happen to get consistently more rpm and triplen current insulation from their use.Then maybe it would.

For Thd measurements would typically only look to the 50th harmonic so for 1k that would be out to 50khz, over double the highest audible. There is also still reason in my reading to use an insulated bearing. Non insulated can carry the triplen harmonic currents. If the steel shafts are not expanding from heat I see no reason you wouldn't be able to use a full ceramic. It is stronger, has less drag, and is electrically insulated.

What led me here is a crude rta measurement taken in an acoustically unstable enviroment with the S6 Edge. You'd be impressed by the full RTA features on a phone.:jaw:

A 70 db triplen seen at 300hz fundamental a 2.7khz whistle 84410..... this one is negligible as no elevated heat shows and ill never run with no load and very little throttle - the point at which this reading was taken. It seems through further investigation that the non insulated bearings can carry those currents and create more inefficiency. It also appears that some engineers double or enlarge the size of the neutrals to also deal as they can see 173% more current than the phase currents. All this is worth a personal test for me since I've yet to see any.

http://helifreak.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=637641&d=1456621668

cohesive

1.March.2016, 16:25

8443684437
Working on the test stand this is what 30,000 rpm looks like on a non proprietary children's project optical tach.:lol:

cohesive

2.March.2016, 00:24

Basic Stamp2 MCU Dev. board with secrethttp://helifreak.com/images/smilies/5grouphug.gif3 wire optical switch and 3900 series 256 x 64 Noritake graphic VFD for tach readout. Serial hookup for smart serial lcd is is not too complicated I believe. I think 3 wires.... display serial Rx to an MCU io , ground ,and +5 volts.Just like the photo switch. http://helifreak.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif
84446

cohesive

2.March.2016, 22:57

No more waiting for logging to upload or drill estimates. We have real time now and debug to screen. More work on a kitchen test stand...... Stamp2 can read a 250Khz pulse train so I think I could use 2 or 4 teeth and get better resolution possibly.

Until next post

Danke,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwYYZsOmNls&feature=youtu.be

cohesive

21.March.2016, 14:06

Does anyone here know what beat gold is? For me it is headphones created by Dr Dre. a famous US music producer but on another forum "beatgold" was the term used to add eddy current?????????

cohesive

1.April.2016, 10:47

Guess not... LOL

Wassup CL smooth...

I await the exclusive consortium's photos of this 1.9mm mono wire SCDD SL wind in a dual layer then I want them to add a turn!!! The world will soon know what we do about these people and this person.

Take care.

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=84926&stc=1

Hubert

cohesive

8.April.2016, 14:06

Hammered skipped tooth China (Align RCM-BL700MX) can terminate as parallel 3 tooth wyes or deltas 7 Turns Avg. Diameter 1.91516 mm S.C.D.D. wind .Even though it is not new or radical it is verified.... A school of thought on encapsulation and removing heat that differs from the reptilian gurus formed using UHU :doh:. Opaque.... It is also good for making windings proprietary.

http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/tds…32tc-2parts.pdf

cohesive

8.April.2016, 16:59

Raw with no encapsulation or insulation. You see in photo Apprx. 452.7 grams with shaft vs stock 405 grams with insulation and encapsulation. MX-ers weigh yours. This is a minimum of 36.2495 kcmils, and 18.368 mm^2 cross sectional area. Original area is 7.6mm^2, so we have here a 133% increase in copper using the LRK's and IEEE's teams push it's all finished ...and truly believe with the wasted "cooling" space you see one more turn is likely in there if you lubricate and needle the wire. With 10 years r&d and a masters proprietary knowledge (http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/RcA/ygj/RcAygjy4i.gif) one can go ahead and achieve 152% increase in a DL on this motor and post it. It should be empirically enlightening.

cohesive

13.April.2016, 16:59

More photos. Nothing radical or new just a single layer parallel wye - a rare sighting from the farm. Very simple to terminate. 2 Wye bundles I created by twisting and soldering the ends of each 3 tooth motor's phases with rohs compliant lead free silver solder, then all starts A II a, B II b,C II c, is parallel so dual strand 1.9...mm conductors to form U.V.W. . 4 conductor U.V.W. motor terminals is DD. You would simply create each 3 tooth motor's U.V.W. 2 conductor motor terminals by paralleling the start and end of each phase to one another AE II bS, bE II CS, CE II AS.... aE II BS, BE II cS, cE II aS. Then parallel those 2 conductor motor terminals from each motor U II U, V II V, and W II W. So now heavier current higher revving DD is U,V,W, motor terminals made up of 4 x 1.9...mm conductors. I really wonder should I take another piece of 1.9 and wrap it around the wye bundles and solder it in place to hold the extra triplen currents.

Edit: Please don't be confused by photo 3. It is each wires 180 degree opposite that is paralleled with not the wire beside it in the photo.

Why not take motor constants and verify trap BEMF and harmony in FFT next? http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/wcf/images/smilies/dumm.gif

Metaxa

13.April.2016, 17:24

Hi Hubert,

your work an the documentation of it is great.

I always try to read/translate your posts and sometimes I understand it as well.

It's a pity that no one writes something in this Thread, because I think you have very much skills in what you do and a dialogue would be even more interesting.

I am a user of a electronic-cigarette. The maximum you can do is "making the coils your own", and if the coils are very strange and freaky in a positive way it is called COIL-PORN.

Hubert, your selfmade electronic Motors are a kind of bigger Coil-Porn! I like watching the Photos.

Go on like this!

:prost:

Sorry for my bad english and the lot of "off topic".

cohesive

13.April.2016, 17:44

Hi Tobi,
Thanks! Its a crusade.... Fine if no comments maybe people smarter to just to observe. It is better than preposterous keyboarders in other places so it is good. It may be hard to have continual dialog as I have no real direction in the thread other than to research motor design information apply and confirm whenever possible and share the simple truth from test and academic research. No false claims ,no advertisement to sell friends or my motors, just test and data collection with research findings from masters and dr manuals in the field as guide to confirm any tangible application of theory. Working on 7.5k views so someone is reading here and though they do not speak much they can't all be haters.....so No worries.... I will continue to post more interesting work. And be sure If no one talk I do not take offense but instead am rather flattered and appreciative of the lack of negativity if nothing else!!!

Thank you for your encouragement. I am the one that has the language barrier problem not you....:)

Hubert

cohesive

17.April.2016, 23:37

Here is a very very interesting thread that may help us DIY motor and prop enthusiast. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2337523. Dynamic propeller Balance Build.

Hubert

cohesive

18.April.2016, 10:07

Here is another on new magnet tech that may make rare earths obsolete. http://www.designworldonline.com/coming-revolution-high-strength-magnets/

cohesive

24.April.2016, 16:11

Hi Christian,

In response to your post on rc line. It appears the newer double helix wind surrounding a two poles rotor each with an opening angle of 45 degrees would form a square ABC rhombic phase matrix under each pole with 90 degree resultant vectors? Each 180 degree coil set would be set at 120 degrees apart. Wouldn't the 4,8,10,12,14,16 higher pole counts increase the switching loss at high speeds?So for high speed it seems 2 or 4 poles would be better in terms of switching loss? What are the torque ripple characteristics of a skewed winding as compared to straight in a slotless motor?

Anyone else here is free to give answers as well.

Hubert

cohesive

24.April.2016, 21:01

In the meantime here is the BEMF scope shots @ apprx. 15.5k rpm from the SL MX700. Panned out to be 835 Kv on the optical tachometer. Compare the 2nd and 3rd photo taken at 2,250 rpm and you can see the harmonics associated with loss amplitudes rise with an increase in rpm . Still we can see the crest and troughs starting to flatten confirming a better trapezoidal BEMF for zero cross drives. A pure sinus has shown to be better for BLAC or but not superior to trapezoidal on BLDC drives. What most hobbyist use. The last photo was the Bemf and FFT analysis taken across a phase and the neutral line. I believes it illustrates the extra triplen current and noise in the neutral line. I could be wrong but clearly more harmonics are being produced here. This seems to agree with the academic explanation for 170% increase of triplen seen it the neutral lines.

Hubert

cohesive

25.April.2016, 17:42

This is a photo of new tech in the USA from Thingap (http://www.thingap.com/ironless-composite-stator/). The IEEE confirm 30% more power density in printed or coils etched on flexible pcb.

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=85570&stc=1

Hubert

cohesive

30.April.2016, 22:08

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=85685&stc=1http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=85686&stc=1

cohesive

30.April.2016, 23:14

http://motorsolver.com/mfg-services/prototyping/

cohesive

1.May.2016, 00:09

FYI

Ive found that actually Slotless winding dont have to be hard to repeat or "spaghetti". Rhombic or similar skewed windings can be repeated with a fair amount of consistency using a sliding mandrel. The patent for such a mandrel lies here in the US. Definitely does not have to be indiscriminately laid. In some slotless motors u can see a definitive pattern overlapping placing at least 1 wire from each phase under a pole.

Hubert

cohesive

3.May.2016, 15:36

Hi Christian,

You do not talk much here but this is the actual laser cutting vendor (http://www.polarislaserlaminations.com/index.html) that will provide the lamination's for the stator designs we've tossed back n forth. We really need to talk because some type of non-disclosure agreement needs to be drafted and signed by such vendors....

Send me email soon. I'm ready to get these done.

Man braucht nicht viel hier reden, aber das ist die eigentliche Laserschneid Anbieter, der die Laminierung der für den Stator-Designs bieten wir kommen wieder n her geworfen haben. Wir müssen reden wirklich, weil irgendeine Art von Geheimhaltungsvereinbarung muss von solchen Anbietern ausgearbeitet und unterzeichnet werden ....

A video of the laser cutting process for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MpZ2a75OwQ

Hubert

cohesive

12.May.2016, 12:41

Hello ,
Unfortunately I have to inform everyone the SPS stator suggestion may be a bust. After a year of winding testing and encouragement that this was the best design I have been informed that no flux analysis work has been done on the stator. I guess my original sent plan to do so just had some numbers arbitrarily set in place and sent back. Well we know that is a hit or miss. The prototype will cost a considerable amount in .005 hiperco 50. Not specifically but close to 2 grand!! I was going to give this the best opportunity to win or show gains but it is impossible for me to be able to also finance 10000 dollar analysis software for a prototype already at the hands of someone else that merely had to take a few minutes away from posting on 5 forums about such things and actually nurture its success but they spend too much time typing everywhere so they have no time.:)

So,
Ill let you know how it goes. I guess I will backtrack to motor solve USA and pay for the analysis as well. If it fail SPS is not my child but someone else's so if they do not tell the caregiver the right food the baby cannot be healthy. Nevertheless I will stand by its failure or success on my own accord and will be ready to take all the criticism that arise. No need to post what you cant stand behind and take the heat for if you are wrong. I will be right here with bulls eye on chest. Sorry about suggestions that people don't guide you fully through. It is of no service to anyone. So it is best I lock my back door . You can waste a lot of time and money on pieces of an idea or theory with no real meat. I have already so I will see it through.

You all see clearly how much of my own time and effort I spend. If one doesn't have 30 min time to foster his own ideas and suggestions to other modelers, no need to suggest anything.

God Bless.
Back to school....

Hubert

I have and old 1977 242 special prepped 4 cylinder volvo with 22 pounds of boost that will beat Maserati GT on the autobahn any day. It does have a Maserati turbo knock computer though..... only 8 valves!!!

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o609/hugh39/DSC00077-1.jpg
http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o609/hugh39/DSC00080.jpg

the "family car" the t6 motor can put 700 hp to the ground on e85 and stock internals my friend. The Group A 4 cylinders Grotis head bricks consistently ruled BMW v8's in the mid 80's BTCC

Im enjoying my cars too including the AWD v8. :) Net surfers... go on you tube and watch a prepped t5 run down a Lamborghini !

A family car (http://www.torquenews.com/108/reigning-world-challenge-champ-k-pax-racing-competing-new-volvo-s60)

cohesive

12.May.2016, 16:31

All the motors and perspective BLDC drives will be moved to my blog. Anyone is welcome to visit but you will have to sign in to see everything and that means Ill know if you've been there...*pleased*

God Bless
Hubert.

cohesive

13.May.2016, 18:31

Delivered In godspeed an epiphany...... https://www.unibw.de/rz/dokumente/getFILE?fid=7220917&fd=kein

I can look to the fellow IEEE Members and ensure great amendments for better flux performance and hysteresis rejection within the SPS design.

Watch me...your purpose here.

God Bless
Hubert

cohesive

14.May.2016, 23:44

Looks to be more field confirmation of DahamanIshak ,Z.Q.Zhu, Senior Member, IEEE, and David Howe findings on Single and Dual layer FSCW bldc motors

"In that case the stock motor had a 780 Kv and the LRK-Y wind was predicted to produce a 781 Kv and I liked that because it compared the dLRK and LRK winds at the same Kv rating.

The details are all in that post and my conclusion was that by going to that LRK-Y wind gave me an 8% increase in full throttle RPM, a 48% reduction in current draw, and a 15% increase in thrust. So if you were looking for a wind that would give you much better duration out of a battery and slight increases in full throttle RPM and speed, this would be a good wind. And it did that at 116W at full throttle. "

~Jackerbes Rc groups~

cohesive

23.May.2016, 23:28

No matter what forums have to offer anyone's best bet is a good education and real world testing. Do these thing and an entirely different world becomes clear. You will be happy and well informed. The line between helping modelers and vendor$ is very obscure so please be aware in your travels seeking knowledge and what really motivates some of the postings you read on forums.

God Bless
Cohesive

cohesive

24.May.2016, 13:27

Zeus wire sent me a few samples of PEEK coated magnet wire for review. I have already received much opinion from non active forum geniuses who quite obviously do not understand professional courtesy over .001watt per meter kelvin variance in thermal conductivity as compared to some PAI's. It should be obvious if someone gives you 3 spools of working samples that you would be professionally courteous and wind at least 1 motor in the material. This allows you to give the representative real feedback from the field which could be applied to make the product better. Just no way around the ignorance that runs abundant on model forums or the geniuses who spend their majority of time at a keyboard.Who spends critical design time arguing 1/100th of a watt per meterkelvin of dissipation? Somebody with nothing better to do.

Truly Pathetic!

Happy Boating
Hubert

cohesive

25.May.2016, 16:31

What about hallbach on stacked axial inrunners?

WOW

http://goldeneye.ethz.ch/motoren/electric/inrunner/index_EN

cohesive

25.May.2016, 16:32

double post

Ch.Lucas

25.May.2016, 20:54

wy not doubleside motor ,has double trustsurface ,much higher torque ability .Trustsurface rule , https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=6459185B1&KC=B1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20021001&DB=EPODOC&locale=de_EP .

cohesive

26.May.2016, 03:23

Yes right Christian why not. It can be ready in time to install in your saw boat but I was thinking in terms of this decade....:laugh:

Trying to find this valence and body kit if you can sen me a link. The family car......I drive bricks homie *pleased*
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--0HaNec6V--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/pxzunibqex5jjhqg9mok.jpg

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--yKWd-Ma4--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/omeidqdx4qfmjgiocheb.jpg

cohesive

27.May.2016, 15:06

Perfect example of school of croco dl winds and fitment problems associated.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/50685659/motors/5020_1.4_YY_88.jpg

"f you get 20 turns in there you will get 420 kv but you probably have to go to 1.27mm wire.
This is a 5020 wound with 1.4mm 8+8 YY 525kv.
(kv shown are measured on jive. At 18* add around 10kv to each number)"

Do open eyes think it would be difficult to wind 16 turns of 16 ga or larger wire in a skipped tooth wind on the stator above? The parallel winds all still apply only I can get more copper in and all the advantages of skipped tooth winds are inherent. I put SL winds against any powercroco DL in a boat on sensorless drives. You can tell him I said it.

For boaters with a 5020 scorpion how about 10 to 12 turns SL in 1.9mm YY kv should be around 700-900. That will pull a prop for sure. A 12n10p the single layer will make more torque and do it easier than a DL on BLDC drives. Follow slow turning speed plane design theory if you choose. In my experience single coil winding fits wire easier. All the well thought out 4-3-2-1 sequencing to fit large wire DL is a waste of time for boaters and only gets harder after each coil group.My experience says it is silly to go through it all for less.

Unfortunate to sell friends outrunners people don't tell you any of this dual layer vs single layer or about all the loss associated with a high rpm outrunner as compared to a Nue or Lehner inrunner in a boat.Of course they knew. Not friends anymore :confused: so all the places their motor can improve is now being brought to light through forum piss matches after saying its the way to go.Same guys different faces. Innocent modelers with privateer money are simply collateral damage in vendor wars. The IEEE has a plethora of valid information on the subject matter. Go to the site sometime and treat yourself to some profit free reality.

God Bless
Hubert

Snopy205

28.May.2016, 10:03

Hi.

Wie schaut es in der Praxis aus?
Papier ist geduldig.

Dann wirst du ja bestimmt mal eins deiner Boote gefahren haben z.b. mit nen 4035 12N10P ein mal in YY und ein mal als SPS.
Gleicher Motor,ca.gleiche KV,Prop Accu,Wasser gleich usw.

Hast dann ja bestimmt auch Logdaten von den fahrten,Bilder und Videos vom Boot usw.

Wie schaut der REALE Vergleich aus?

Sprich was geht an Strom durch,wie warm werden die Motorn,wie schnell läuft das Boot usw.
Da wäre ja mal eine gegenüberstellung der Daten interessant.

Und dann die große frage...merkt man es im Wasser???
Brauche ich den extremen Füllgrad oder ist es besser wenn ich etwas weniger habe aber ne besser Kühlung.

Wie groß ist der Quantensprung zur SPS Wicklung?

Ich persönlich sehe das so das viele Wege nach Rom führen.
Du gehst den einen Weg,ich nen anderen,und der nächste nen ganz wo anders lang und doch kommen wir alle an.

Gruß Ralf!

cohesive

28.May.2016, 13:22

Sound like the same old argument that doesn't change the facts. Common sense tells you why:

http://www.braintrust.at/2007/ds/rc/neu1515_1512_cans.jpg
Neu
http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/3/5/8/0/8/t3645239-56-thumb-IMG_1673.jpg?d=1291738471
Lehner

With such abundance of copper and absolute lack of space what happens with the cooling in a Neu or Lehner inrunner?:jaw: Amazing to think it would be a real problem for a sl outrunner with 6 totally open teeth underneath a can circulating air and radial fan. The idea that the larger CCSA not just more copper but circular mills reducing the electrical drag (resistance) would have a net detrimental effect on performance because of lack of cooling (heat caused by friction) sounds well thought out wouldn't you say? Since you have a grasp on biblical esc logs. I'm sure you will show yours that show the superior performance of a DL compared to a single layer in the same turn and possibly the larger ga. it fits? I already know as many reputable non profiteering motor building EE's have shown. Better if you prove it to yourself and them with a datalog:)

A true single phase sector may entail a slight bit more than just skipped teeth winding. But anyway Here is a kontronics 800 pyro 7 + 7 I wound( a general google search now). The 7 +7 was found most efficient pyro 800 wind by your school out of dl winds. Does it look airy? If you read the thread you will also see real field accounts of the improvement seen in sl compared to dl by modelers not associated with me in any form or fashion.

http://www.offshore-rc.com/forum/uploads/post-4995-0-84934700-1447760415_thumb.jpg

God Bless
Cohesive

Snopy205

28.May.2016, 14:32

Hi.

Das ist ja alles gut und schön.

Du hast ja behauptet das es besser ist mit der SPS im Boot.
Das kann ja auch gut sein.

Ich fahre sehr gut mit meinen Motoren.
Wo bei ich hier auch nie geschrieben habe was und wie ich fahren.
Was ich aber hier auch nicht machen werde.Das läuft eh intern
Da fehlt mir auch ganz ehrlich die Zeit und Lust zu.

Ich behaupte ja auch nicht das meine besser laufen.
Das könnte ich erst behaupten wenn ich beides im Boot getestet hätte.

Kam für mich aber noch nicht in Frage weil ich mit meinen Weg sehr zufrieden bin und die Kühlung der Wicklung besser finde.
Das ist halt meine Meinung und meiner Erfahrungen die ich im Boot gemacht habe.
Die SPS Wicklung ist ja keine neue Erfindung.

Schade hätte nur gedacht das du dein Theorie/Fakten vom Prüfstand/Messungen auch mal getestet hast im Boot um uns hier den großen Vorteil zu zeigen.
Hätte mich schon mal interessiert wie groß oder auch nicht der Unterschied im Wasser ist.
Ich kann es leider nicht sagen.

So das war es auch von meiner Seite hier zu den Thema.
Ist auch nicht böse gemeint oder so.

Ps. Hab gerad gesehen das ich noch Teile für nen 4020 Motor habe.
Werd dann die Tage mal nen 4020 als SPS zu mein 4020 wickeln und selber testen.

Gruß Ralf.

cohesive

28.May.2016, 15:15

Another way to see clearly. If you believe a reduction in total harmonic distortion of the BLDC power/drive system would mean more efficient power delivery then you also believe in many Single Layer theories. Keep in mind a poly variables condition running model data log is not necessary to accurately analyze these electrical/mechanical power systems integrity or output.

My understanding is if you supply a dual layer FSCW motor with a VFD type commutation (FOC,DTC) things may really go. For SPS proposed is 3 full h-bridge phases. None is common in fast electric boating I think.

Enjoy your testing. In practice If you wind a 12N10P 4 + 4 dual layer then it is 8 turns on 6 alternating arms. I have detailed previously YY and DD skipped tooth terminations I suggest YY. If you don't like the idea of more circle mills:bang then wind it in the same ga. Perhaps that will also make it easier for you to fit the carrier.

Some of the theory is as recent as 4 years. I think croco school for a boat is much more Jurassic....

cohesive

28.May.2016, 16:05

In meantime I found wonderful ground full 8mm shaft donar.Donar looks like a kunimotor Christian :laugh: maybe ill use the dimensional remnants to fashion a halbach rotor. So no grooves or clips for weak shaft break point and pull apart annoyances with really nice teflon washers. It has great interference fit through the bearings for quiet operation. Ill leave enough out the ass to attach the bosch trigger wheel for sensor'ed operation with logic IC :). Time to part it off....

God Bless
Hubert

Snopy205

28.May.2016, 16:52

Hi.

Dann verstehe ich dein Problem nicht.

Es sollte ja dann für Dich ein leichtes Spiel sein uns Bootsfahrer deine überragenden Antriebe auf den Wasser zu demonstrieren und Fakten zu liefern in wie weit die besser sind.

Ich bin gespannt wie groß der Vorsprung ist und ob man das überhaupt im Wasser merkt.

Der reale Einsatzt ist doch das was uns interessiert.

So klinke ich mich hier auch aus der Diskussion aus.

Gruß Ralf.

cohesive

28.May.2016, 17:01

There are no problems for me. Living life and electronics understanding to the fullest. No time to reiterate the same thing.

Good Luck with your testing. I think you will find in mono 1.5 -1.9 mm good gauges and 5-7 turns good coils to try in single layers as upgrade on a 4035 for a fast electric boat.

IEEE Member 93895120
God Bless
Hubert

cohesive

28.May.2016, 23:06

For a boat this upgrade I like; a fresh 8mm shaft. Maybe someone will try a twin inline :confused: Do you see where the bearing inner race has badly worn the original shaft? Interference fit absent = bearing race and shaft noise. So no good.

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86129&stc=1http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86130&stc=1http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86131&stc=1

cohesive

30.May.2016, 01:56

Hmm.... I hear about 1 and 2s high amperage proposals. I wonder would the Lithium supercaps still be duck? Maybe the hall sensors would allow a diy to create a sensored controller using a $ .75 logic IC (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6057897&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_ all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D6057897) for instead of an elaborate microprocessor and flasher and simply concentrate on a robust high amperage bridge. Do you think it is possible to create a 600 amp sink for under 1000.00? :rolleyes:

Hubert

cohesive

30.May.2016, 15:41

Interesting in the brand new scorpion rewind kits like I used to wind this 4035 in a dual layer 200c* dual 1.3mm conductor for 6 turns in a parallel wye (apprx 1200kv) is no key way for steel dowel on the carrier :). What I am seeing is modelers grinding the key way in the carrier and pressing a piece of piano wire in the groove. Easy enough to do with a fair amount of precision is a dremel cut off wheel mounted in the mill with a 90 degree fixture to hold the carrier but I was thinking why not just use loctite 603 (http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/93772_603EN.pdf) for this duty? For fun I also attached another winders compact beautiful 6 turn LRK 1.8mm 4035. Looks to be plenty of breathing room in that single layer if that's a real concern for anyone.My hkIII 4035 as you see terminates 4x's 1.3mm current arteries for each motor terminal.
http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86173&stc=1

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86174&stc=1

cohesive

30.May.2016, 17:44

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86174&stc=1

So for boaters yes I think this is a better way to go....

I also think an open eye can see simplicity and durability as great attributes. And still a 8,12, or 16 pin pic can be an addendum for cute features not directly involving the basic commutation.

http://www.masinaelectrica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/brushless-controller-schematic.png

cohesive

31.May.2016, 17:30

Talk is cheap so I'm looking for beta testors. 1/8th scale hydros and like sized monos preferably. send me a line and we can work it out. I'm very comfortable with someone trying my winds out.

Real simple!

cohesive

1.June.2016, 13:45

"The segregation of the losses in the studied machine indicates that the losses in the magnet are much smaller compared to the rotor and stator core losses caused by the slot harmonics. Therefore, core loss minimization techniques for this type of machine will involve reduction of slot harmonics. Also, copper loss is found to be the most dominating component of the total loss. Hence, copper loss minimization should be part of the design optimization process"

R. Dutta, L. Chong, and F. M. Rahman, "Analysis and experimental verification of losses in a concentrated wound interior permanent magnet machine," Progress In Electromagnetics Research B, Vol. 48, 221-248, 2013.
doi:10.2528/PIERB12110715
http://www.jpier.org/pierb/pier.php?paper=12110715

This is partly how you'd arrive at an SPS stator w Litz wire or Multi stranding a good way to minimize copper loss and stator loss. Very different from traditional croc school large mono wire test finding acceptable skin effect losses with no more than 1.8mm bare copper..... The issue is since these speed plane is running around 6000 rpm the skin effect losses are minimal as compared to 60,000 rpm. Id think 20,000 rpm would be the least amount most fe boaters in any class would go 3X what the speed planes do. And still the cooper cross sectional area will be larger with a full bobbin single layer. Just cannot get as much copper between two adjacent teeth. No question.....

What I found from the rotor courtesy of the IEEE is that carbon fiber epoxy or Inconel718 sleeves can reduce rotor loss.

As the rpm rises proximity and skin effects become more prominent at higher frequency. This reduces the effectiveness of the additional copper cross sectional area at higher frequencies (MORE RPM). Ac resistance is mitigated by the application of litz.

It seems the segmentation of the rare earth would be a last step toward greatness.

God Bless
Hubert

cohesive

1.June.2016, 15:03

Here's a photo I think any motor guy would like. BMW I8 electric motor...... 97KW!!!!! Stay silent Christian I know you love it......:)

Man! I bet the bitch will turn something..... Schaut euch das an STATOR SEGMENTIERTE. ES IST SCHÖN!!!!!!

http://www.designboom.com/technology/behind-the-scenes-bmw-i8-production-05-07-2014/
http://www.designboom.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/making-of-the-BMW-i8-designboom18.jpg

cohesive

4.June.2016, 15:43

Some have suggested powder-iron material for low loss bell but it have no mechanical integrity for work so cover in cf or similar mechanically strong sleeve. But if certain type of carbon/fiber epoxy reduce loss well enuf alone seem easier to skip middle men. And have lighter bell. They have not seen IEEE paper because I have not posted it yet.

God Bless :)
Hubert

cohesive

7.June.2016, 17:55

I have looked deeper and found that a copper sleeve between rotor and CF retention sleeve may truly minimize overall losses. Also some suggestion of circumferential grooving in the retaining sleeves may help in loss reduction. I have some reason to also believe that a slow turner would see a even lower frequency in the rotor as compared to the stator so the losses would be even more minimal there and would not really make themselves seen in Croco world as the would for us who turn much higher rpms.

cohesive

8.June.2016, 04:22

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86252&stc=1

Becoming acclimated with FEMM .

The learning curve may take me awhile but this will get me places without the peek a boo games.

cohesive

8.June.2016, 13:34

And i can assure here are two schemes i derived that not one person can claim they gave me on any forum any where. I derived these schemes myself using the information available at the IEEE. and they threw those wind scheme cals from rc groups for a loop.

Aa-Bb-Cc Kw.95 and A-ACB-BAC-CB Kw.90

Never saw a 12n10p with all the teeth wound in the same direction. Nor 3 tooth parallel winds with individual coil winding not 6 groups! Or a 9n10p with Kw.95. This is how you step outside of a forum box and its gurus and go to a higher place of learning for your information.

Who told me this? Because what I was recommended was a dual layer?

cohesive

8.June.2016, 20:21

If you down load the latest version FEMM version there is a skipped tooth model in the database. That's where the flux analysis photo came from. There is no post saying it was my motor. Im trying to learn how to use the application correctly as it is my first time ever using it. I never lie about a motor or a model. Post #135 No edits..... Nothing like a clowns mouth.

cohesive

8.June.2016, 21:53

Hi this is a real friend. Moma......So you all know now who is talking to you. 5/16/2016

Hubert

cohesive

9.June.2016, 07:22

Femm example model of lrk flux density

cohesive

9.June.2016, 09:54

I have at least one beta tester submission so far and plenty of my own boats to test motors in twin 6s rigger Single 6s rigger 2 1/8 scales a Q mono, P limited sport hydro, P hydro and 16th. scale hydro.

New 1/8th scale I'm building currently that should provide a great test bed as well U25 pay n pak (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/fe/af/a8/feafa896be18749f6c864335535e42e2.jpg).

http://astecmodels.myfreeforum.org/download/file.php?id=648&mode=view
http://astecmodels.myfreeforum.org/download/file.php?id=652&mode=view

cohesive

9.June.2016, 23:27

I received the 603 loctite so I will glue the Align stator to carrier and test it. May be easier way to assemble motor with no keyway.

http://www.rc-raceboats.de/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86272&stc=1

cohesive

11.June.2016, 02:30

The 603 has only been applied about 5 min and theres no moving it by hand. Doest mean alot I guess but I doubt its going anywhere soon after a days cure. Im sure you could use it in the field after 30 min. I'd say its pretty locked. Still lost as to why the scorpion 4035 wind kit has no keyway..... The 5020 and 4025 both have the keyway and pins but i'd still use this to prevent axial shifting. Just in case..... Oh I forgot to post how I applied. I made sure both surfaces were clean the stator and carrier. I applied the loctite to both parts the full lengths the pressed them together while slightly twisting bank n forth. Then I used the 2 ton press to make sure the stator was fully seated. I didn't go crazy with the press and used a piece of soft wood between it and the end turns and a gentle press.... 250*C to break bond so it should hold under duress .

Happy Motoring.....
Hubert